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I had a thought about this in my dorm room at College. A lot of people always grab seeds from different areas and regions of the world. Like everything, pumpkins genetics adapt to the environment around them. I don't know how long or fast that takes, but it happens. Now my question is, will having the same seed grown in the same patch or place every year improve genetics to grow a stronger plant and bigger pumpkin? I'am 17 so I got 50 years in the sport unless I pass on or give it up for some reason. If I keep growing the same seed every year in the same spot, eventually the genetics would be prime for my Southern Ontario location right? Of course everytime it depends on weather. If my seed is subject to cooler days and it's a hot year, than it might not do very well including other factors too, but if grown in the same year at a cool spot in the other end of the country and under certain factors it will or should do good. I don't know, I need some thoughts on this one. Thanks for your input!

9/12/2005 12:48:22 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

Kyle:
Yes, I think you are correct. I also think the best way to go about such a plan would be to plant several of the same seeds, self them all, then grow only from the best next year. Then, repeat. Planting many of the same seed and then selfing reinforces whatever traits the plant has. In a few years you will have selected the best of the best and narrowed down your gene pool to give you more consistent results for whatever trait you are breeding for...Over time, I would think you will have created a seed that does well in your area/microclimate.

9/12/2005 1:20:50 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Climate changes might be faster than AG selection. I wander what will you be growing in 50 years, lol.

9/12/2005 1:25:56 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Kyle- I am a relatively young grower also and I have a degree in biochemistry. I’m no Nic Welty but maybe I can give you some more insight. The genetics of a particular strain will never “change” at least not in our lifetime. Mutations happen of course, that is how evolution occurs, but these changes are slow to occur.. generally taking tens of thousands of years and usually result in a dud strain which will not survive, unless a corresponding change in the environment coincides with the timing of the mutation.

What growers do, thru trial and error, is grow and cross many different seed stocks until they find one which will do well for their growing environment (soil type, temperature, moisture level). This is the basis of the theory of natural selection… in our case, we the growers are choosing which seed lines get reproduced year after year. So we are artificially speeding up the process. What you go for, is to find 2 strains which have a recessive trait for huge fruit growth (in your conditions), and cross them. This new line has a much better chance of producing huge fruit for you in the future. But it is like playing the lottery. Fortunately, you have 50 years of lottery playing left. Try investigating punnett squares.

-Jim

9/12/2005 2:11:08 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

The amount of willpower required to keep growing a seed stock for more than 3 years and keeping it pure is unbelievably high,somebody elses pumpkin is always oranger or heavier.
I've been sold on the idea of growing my own seeds from the start but after 4 years and 15 plants I have only made 2 crosses I like and haven't grown either of those yet something else generally seems to land on the doorstep.
At the moment I plan to grow those two crosses next year.

9/12/2005 2:42:50 PM

Antigonish,Nova Scotia,Canada

Make sure you find a "significant other" who shares your BP passion, otherwise your 50 future BP years may NOT be as pleasant as you think!!!...LOL....why is it so hard for non-BP growers to be able to appreciate the finer points of this amazing yet frustrating hobby......strange,25 years or so ago I came home with a brand-new roto-tiller for my wife on Mother's Day and I haven't heard the end of it yet!!!(True story)...LOL....best of luck with both your future careers....(BP growing and whatever else you decide to do!)....To me it sounds like you're off to a great start!.......all the best, Bill

9/12/2005 5:15:02 PM

Long Island,New York

I think you are confusing evolution with unnatural selection.The plant wont evolve to grow one fruit really really big without un-natural selection. If you find one of your seeds of the 5 you grow to do well in a hot summer you will grow that next...un-natural selection, not evolution.

9/12/2005 5:34:13 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

If you are specifically trying to grow pumpkins that grow well in a particular spot in a particular environment, wouldn't it be better to allow natural selection to take its course? Why not let them grow wild for the 50 years? No watering, no fertlizer, no nuthin'! After that you should end up with a pretty hardy specimen, I would think.

But, my degree is in Theatre. So, I can't claim any expertise. :-)

9/12/2005 6:21:31 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Crammed, I am confident they would turn theatrical if you let them go wild! lol ...and hardy too.

9/13/2005 3:19:40 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

crammed- right on. Next year my plan is to grow 5 plants or so (with watering and fert of course) and see which does best in the crazy heat we get here. Try to repeat the following season... two in a row from the same seed = a winner! Not that 2 in a row is proof but it would certainly suggest a tolerance. Then gradually start making intelligent crosses which encourage thicker fruit, orange color, weigh over estimate, etc.

I might as well ask if anyone from NC or AL or otherwise could suggest some seed lines to try for the heat?

9/13/2005 10:14:09 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

Why not take it one step further and let them all open pollinate? You wouldn't be able to keep track of the genetics. But, it sounds like we're talking about creating a new strain anyway. So, who cares?

If you are adding fertilizer and water, aren't you compromising the experiment?

9/13/2005 10:44:16 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

I think we are getting off base here. Experiment? We didn't make a hypothesis yet. I just want to grow the largest fruit possible. I could come up with something though. In my garden, I fertilize and water. If you develop a strain of wild pumpkins, but then you try and grow that strain for real, going for weight, ka-boom... blow it up every time because the walls are too thin or something.

My main problem with experimenting is A) each plant takes up 500 sq feet and B) it takes a lot of work to grow even a few plants. The larger your sample population is, the more relevant the data you get is. And it's hard to grow a large population of Atlantic Giants! I guess that's why you see so much experimenting involving seed germination. 50 seedlings would be easier to manage that 50 mature plants.

9/13/2005 11:22:44 AM

Midwest

It's an issue with this hobby/sport. I don't think that there can be meaningful genetic analysis done in a competitive environment. While many growers cross for better genetics, their results are not compiled at the end of the season. It is a question of resources. My hat is off to these great growers. To find a truely great strain takes thoughtful experimenting. Very few have the time/resources to plant identical genetic strains, keeping one as a 'control' while fully manipulating the other for competition. I would hope that one of the local associations or the GPC would make more of an effort toward scientific tabulation.

9/13/2005 2:51:52 PM

Sequim, WA

I had a brief chat with Jack LaRue during the Puyallup Fair weighoff last Friday and we shared the observation that no matter what seeds get planted, we often do best with our own. It almost seems they become acclimated to the conditions in our own patches and perform the best with the given soil and climate that the parents had. He commented that weights are going up for southern and other hot season growers and 10 years ago that didn't seem to be likely. Plant biologists will probably tell us that this is coincidental, but my observations lead me to believe otherwise. If it's a case of adapt or die, I feel they adapt as long as contitions are not too far outside their comfort zone. I've seen palm trees growing here in Washington and I didn't think they could tolerate our climate this far North, but they do. When adapt or die is all they can do, they adapt as often as possible.

9/14/2005 2:56:53 AM

Long Island,New York

Tiller...consider this. You chose to grow 1-2 of your own this year . I'm sure you chose NOT to grow 5-6 of yours also. You have SELECTED a plant because you saw something successful in the parent(s). We you grow it and it does well perhaps its doing well because it did well last year?.

9/14/2005 3:11:59 PM

Sequim, WA

G, you got me there, but in the past when I have set a PB with my own seeds, they were unproven and prior year seeds. This year my 04 seeds that made it into the patch have not done as well. But my 03 seeds that were planted in the patch last year are doing well this year as well. Better even than last season. Last year my 576* 03 only produced a 484 squash on a secondary vine. This season on a secondary the squash if it holds up will be much heavier. My daugter got a 616 from her 576 03 last season and it was a bright orange beauty that went very heavy. She grew that this year and it produced a 408 for her. I chose the 576 to see what dad could do with it and so far, so good. It's much bigger than the 299" OTT her 616 was. If it goes heavy then I am in new territory with it. I've had the opportunity to grow the 723 Bobier on a couple occasions as well as the 940 Mombert 98 and neither one has produced as well for me as some of my own seeds. I've advocated for years that folks give their own seeds a chance. Haven't you found you do pretty well with yours?

9/15/2005 1:45:24 AM

Long Island,New York

Ok...so how was your weather this year compared to last and the year before? Was this years prime time similar to 03 and not like 04?
To use me as an example for home-grown success is impossible. I grow too many places over too many years with too many issues to compare. Also, I kinda grow along a genetic twist each year...a genetics "project" type seed choice. It would be best to ask growers in the same patch who grow for big and see what they say. You didn't grow the 723 based upon what you saw it do in your patch, you grew it based upon other's patches.Why did you chose to grow the seeds you started?

9/15/2005 12:25:38 PM

Sequim, WA

Prime time was about the same this year. However May and June were much cooler and wetter than the prior three years and the plants were way behind schedule. Fruit set didn't start in the patch this year until after the first week of July. Earliest pollination was on the 7th and the last one on the 22nd. Those two pumpkins are also the largest in the patch right now. A replay of the 2002 or 2003 growing seasons would be great, 2003 was probably the best. Last year we had a stretch of cool wet weather in late August the slammed the brakes on everything early.

9/15/2005 4:46:33 PM

Sequim, WA

This years selections were based on probable color and genetics. I wanted orange pumpkins and green squash and if the seeds hadn't produced much in the past that's fine, as long as I felt the genetic potential was there. I grew the 1074 Calai even though it has never done as well as the 846 because it was the same cross as the 846 and I liked what I saw from that. From what I've seen this seed hasn't been tried nearly as much as the 846 but folks hopped onto the bandwagon for the 845 Bobier because it was the same cross as the 723 and obtainable. Enough people grew it to prove that it had the same potential. Why that hasn't occurred with the 1074 I can't say. Perhaps it's because only a couple folks have planted it and haven't produced the same kind of results. 1105 Stucker was big and orange and looked like it would produce good color and had a cross I liked. I didn't do as well as I would have liked with it but that doesn't prove the potential isn't there. I liked the cross of the 954.5 Razo, but it split every fruit on the plant. My own 690 split the main vine fruit as well. My 980 Razo was damaged early in the season and wouldn't set one on the main. The 645 Gould is not in the best location in the patch and although the plant was a dandy the squash on it is not. That leaves the 1033 Emmons 04. A plant from a selfed 846 Calai that is growing a cream colored pumpkin that is growing best of all right now, but it's still less than 60 days old and the plant nearly was pulled because it was such a dog early on in the season. So my heaviest pumpkin and squash will be from seeds that were produced from fruit grown in the same patch that they are growing in. As far as I know noone else has tried them but they will both surpass what they produced for us last year.

9/15/2005 4:47:07 PM

Sequim, WA

It would be nice to hear from a few others who have grown their own seeds. Maybe Al Eaton would like to tell us why he likes to use his own seeds in the patch and why he thinks he does well with them. I know Jack LaRue thinks theres something to this. I like this topic and hope we can keep it going or revisit it again in the future.

9/15/2005 4:47:15 PM

Long Island,New York

For the somewhat distorted and perhaps not-so-meaningful record, my PB in my backyard patch is from my own 455 seed.

9/15/2005 8:20:21 PM

Cologne / Germany

If you have a great performing plant in your actual season, it might happen you never meet that perfect plant again. Not before, and not from this seed in your next seasons.
So in my opinion the key is to keep the plant - make a clone. Not the seed, the plant that was right in your area at this time will probably do the same for you next year.

I have a 1260 Weir starting to take off now...a little late (muhaha) but amazing to see. No disease, not even PM, vines 2 inch thick, 5 lobers only, secondaries everywhere. 4 clones are on the way.

9/15/2005 9:02:01 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

floh, no disrespect meant here, but...your plan seems to pivot on having a duplicate..."actual season". If that "perfect plant", next year comes up against a different style of "actual season" (more or less rain, more or less heat or cold, different soil conditions due to ammendments)...what will the results be? Peace Wayne

9/15/2005 11:04:26 PM

Cologne / Germany

Peace, that was just my idea from watching the seasons 2004 and 2005. Not much difference concerning the weather, the soil, plant care etc. In 2004 the 1260 was slower and in late September it was toasted. The 2005 plant from another 1260 seed, having almost comparable conditions, is vigorous, healthy and strong instead.
So if you open a bag of seeds from the same pumpkin and plant them, in different seasons, you will probably not have the same results. The idea of cloning a very strong plant out of them might keep the desired traits and the adaption to your local environment much better IMHO.

9/16/2005 9:21:37 AM