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Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

I was wondering if we can make our soil too good? With all the splits that are happening this last few seasons, are our soils getting too good? This is something that I have been pondering the last few weeks. I never had too many problems with splits, but the last couple years have been sickening. I have really put a lot of effort into adding manures, compost, maple leaves, gypsum, cover crops, compost teas and micro-nutrients into my garden the last 3 years and now I'm having a hard time trying to keep one going until the end of the season without splitting. They get up to 600-700# in early August and then pop. They are growing so fast that they are bound to split. The only one I have left is one that got burnt-up in the heat and the few leaves that are left look like crap and it's still gaining 7# a day. It is @ 900# now. Anybody else experiencing this problem or have a thought on this topic? Maybe I just need to tone it down a bit with the addition of manure and compost.

Phil

9/13/2005 7:59:42 AM

Rexburg, Idaho ([email protected] )

Splits are caused by more then rapid growth. I split out two pumpkins this year. Both were growing very slowly 331# and 421#. I think splits are caused by enviromental factors (whatever those are) that allow either deep ribs, dill rings and the like to form.

9/13/2005 8:37:10 AM

Puyallup, WA

August 7-14 at my patch is known as "Split Alley"! Do let me know when you can get them to not split. I believe that it is a combination of factors that cause stem and blossum-end splits. Dill Rings are over 50% genetic.

9/13/2005 10:39:09 AM

Edmonton, Canada

I agree with Stan about genetics. I also firmly believe that warm days combined with cold nights cause fruit to split.

9/13/2005 11:06:12 AM

I personally think that all this that people do is not very good for the soil. Soil is a living part of this earth that is effected by many different factors. I'am no expert at all with soil. I just started a Soils course in ridgetown college today so maybe I can figure something out here.

I believe in the Bible and in God and I know that in the bible it says you should let the soil rest one year after 7 years of growth or something. Farmers fail to do this and most gardeners because there is no productivity. One year a field sat with nothing growing in it, it wasn't even touched by a tractor or plow. The next year it got cultivated and seeded. The weather was decent that year but that field produced some of the best yeilds and quality crop. Don't ask me why, that's just what I've seen.

When you place foriegn things in soil, the soil has to adjust to this new thing. Works just like people, take a city of people with a system, and throw another million others in it who have no jobs or are homeless, adjustments have to be made so that they can fall into the system, get jobs, live, and produce for the city. The more people you throw into the city the longer and more disorganized it will take to regain order. If you put a smaller amount of people in there than things are quick to order and the adjustments are made quickly.

9/13/2005 11:10:26 AM

Now the last part could be useless blabber and I could be very wrong. But this is just what I thought about and is causing the splits.

Since the soil needs a year or more to adjust with the heavy amounts of crap your throwing in it, it is causing the soil to be unstable that year. Because of this unstabability in the soil the result could probably be a split pumpkin. Or besides pumpkins, a bad crop yield, or maybe poor flowers in the garden. Whatevers happenin done there is effecting what you see on top. Natural processes are occuring in the soil and with all the new stuff in there, the process is thrown off and it will take time to regain that natural system again. NOW I'am probably very wrong, but this is just a fague suggestion to help on this topic.

9/13/2005 11:15:58 AM

I bet you $100 (not seriously) that if you added all these things, than let the soil rest for about a year or two, don't even step foot in it, you will be getting the biggest or at least strongest and most resealiant crop out of your patches. I could be wrong and probably am but this is just an idea. Thanks for listening to me blab! Hope it helps on this topic! And good luck to everyone still going! I hope we can shed some new light on this sport and figure out some these complicated issues we have with these monsters!

9/13/2005 11:20:23 AM

Just another thing to add that I just thought of now. In a forest the soil is very rich and promoting to the vegetative growth, because every fall the leaves and whatever growth falls to the ground and replenishes the lost nutrients. As the topsoil slowly lowers because the nutrients leave it a new layer of composting leaves begins another layer of topsoil, continueing the system and always slowly adding new nutrients again. This goes back to my city theory. Throw less people into it the faster things adjust back to the normal process or system. Throw less but beneficial things into the soil, will add nutrients, replenishing back to normal and it doesn't need a very long time to regain it's normal processes. Throw a lot in but leave it for awhile, the soil will naturally regain it's natural processes. Still saying this again, I DON'T know if this is true or even near right it's just an idea! Thanks again.

9/13/2005 11:31:52 AM

Netherlands

Amen to your Biblical sabbatical, Kyle. God didn't decree that without a reason. Rotating crops of course is also very important.

9/13/2005 12:16:42 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

I think the problem is a reliability issue....we need to put blame into what we are trying to accomplish. The biggest dang pumpkins ever. I am sure if you could hop back in time 20 years and ask Howard Dill how big do you think these pumpkins can get. I bet if you said what about 1500lbs he would have said not in my lifetime. So we have basically made a Ford Escort with a Rocket Engine. Some are able to completed the race, and well we know the outcomes of the others...Sure is a fun ride...

9/13/2005 12:38:02 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

This probably isn't where Phil expected this conversation to go, but...

If people are interested in reading the text, it's Leviticus 25 (there are also references in Exodus and Deuteronomy).

I think it only applies to the land of Israel. So, you're off the hook in Ontario :-) And, even in modern day Israel, which depends very much on agriculture, the strictly Orthodox use religious technical loopholes to get around some of the potential hardships of sabbatical year.

In any case, the sabbatical year does not prevent things from growing. It only forbids tending to the land during that time. One could still eat whatever was produced there naturally. So, if you were to follow that law, you could allow your sixth year pumpkins to rot in the field and some of the seeds would surely grow in the seventh year.

Having said that, I am not so sure that giant pumpkin growing is all that natural a process in the first place. I don't think that these fruit would exist without human intervention. I don't mean to suggest that God is out of the equation. We sure are pushing the limits that God has set up. That gives us an opportunity to show just how wonderful the parameters of creation can be. But, it would be hard to argue that God wants us to grow giant pumpkins.

9/13/2005 12:43:02 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

I think that as long as you're not hurting anyone, God wants you to find happiness in life. And if growing giant pumpkins makes you happy, then God would want you to grow giant pumpkins.

I'm a christian too, and I don't know how much land costs in Ontario, but within a 50 mile radius of Washington DC, a flat acre of land will go for well over $200,000. So needless to say I'm stuck with only one garden for now. And it can rest when I'm gone from this earth :-) I know you guys probably got huge parcels of land though. Kyle- I like your enthusiasm.

-Jim

9/13/2005 1:08:15 PM

Long Island,New York

I hope to someday get my soil to the point where a 1700lber can't handle it. I'll grow two that year and when the 1700lber splits Ill sever all the sidevines off my 1650lber and coast in for the win.
But seriously Phil- thats where the skill (and luck) come in. Anyone can split a big pumpkin. Its when you ride that baby out on the edge and bring her home solid and overwieght that you have mastered the hobby(for that year).
BTW, God would have been a squasher.

9/13/2005 3:10:45 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

Of course God was a squasher...He squashed Sodom and Gomorrah. :-)

9/14/2005 1:22:28 AM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Kyle the "crap" your talking about is stuff most successful growers are adding to their gardens. Since when did cover crops, manure, compost and maple leaves become "crap" and the wrong things to add to my patch. I now know why your only getting up 400#. Stan, I agree the the dill rings are genetic, but I've never had one. G. I'd like to ride one out on the edge, but I just keep getting a big cut in my butt. I want to get over the 1000# barrier, but everytime I get close, BOOM.

I just thought it was weird that all my healthy plants split their pumpkins, but the real sick-looking plant was still going and will be over 900#. It's only got about 10 good leaves and about 50 REALLY bad ones. Can anyone explain why?

Phil

9/14/2005 6:50:00 AM

Montoursville, PA

Leaf removal, for a slowed finish, is a management tool. To much lettuce could force the issue into a split....in combination with a lot, of other pushing some, of us do.

Even though your leaves are down via age or whatever cause your roots are still working as long as the vine is healthy.

9/14/2005 9:28:29 AM

Ontario

I have to agree with Phil. The better your soil the more prone to splits your pumpkins will have. It's a double edged sword though. If you don't have those nutrients you can't get a big pumpkin. If you do have those nutrients then be prepared for rapid growth and lots of spilts. I think a lot of people in Ontario had splitting issues due to the HOT spring we had. It's a crap shoot really. If you guessed right about the heat and trimmed out your plant smaller than normal then you're probably are doing OK. If you had normal sized plants you're paying the price now. I'm down to my last pumpkin too.

9/14/2005 10:31:08 AM

I'm sorry bout the crap thing. I don't mean crap as in it's no good. I mean it as manure or stuff. I think all the patch prep you guys do is awesome and I will eventually do that too, but what I think is happening is there is an overload of nutrients in the soil with all that you do. Of course you need to add nutrients but just be carefull how you do it. To much of one thing is no good. That's just an idea I have had! The weather can be to blame for a lot too, which is probably the reason, as crop yields are low in the Marsh for onions and most crops in the heat beaten regions of N.A. Hopefully next year will be good to us. Good Luck everyone!

9/14/2005 1:27:44 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

I think most growers will agree, balanced soil is the main goal. If you have to add crap.. literally... then you do it.

Personally I think that splits come primarily from fluctuations in watering or the need to water, as the pumpkin's flesh dries, contracts, then rapidly begins to expand again. Like with tomatoes.

9/14/2005 2:24:30 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Guys, I know of the genetic glues we are hearing about. I however, think it may be possible that other factors are at place against the grower. There are so many differing fruit strains split this year that it is really hard to equate the problem based solely to genetics.

Phil, could the Acid rain that falls on our crops have the affect of blasting them with large amounts of Acidic AMMONIUM NITRATE. The surfactant quality of rainwater disperses the Ammonium for easier uptake. It is simply too much. Summers smog filled air often preludes T-storms filled with Air laden with Pollution. Each passing cold front Revs up the engine too fast.

The acidity of rainwater,which is caused by H2SO4 and HNO3 is mainly, neutralized by alkaline components such as NH3 and Ca2+. I have heard of rainwater that is far below the level of 5. This may be why some people report good luck with spraying calcium. It seams as if neutralizing the water may be most effective when used just following a rainfall.

I don't think we can hide behind the abrasive nature of rainfall and the roll its chemical composition plays havoc with our plants.

????????????

Russ

9/14/2005 6:57:00 PM

Midwest

Is it excess nutrients in the soil or the volume of water that splits a pumpkin? If there might be a way to stablize the temperatures and the water intake, controlling those factors might prevent a split. I'd like to put a volume meter and a valve on the stem to control how much the pumpkin gets. If splitting has something to do with inconsistent water delivery, it would seem that the blossom end would be first to split since it's furthest away from the stem source. The smaller the plant, the slower the water delivery system. Other than leaf removal, are there any practices that would lessen the chance of a split? How about removing the roots at the leaf axle close to the pumpkin?
greg

9/14/2005 7:38:44 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Greg, Many of us have watered religiously before and after a rainfall event. I'm becoming ever intrigued by the fact that many growers reported an increase of splits after a rainfall. The clues are becoming clearer then ever for me. It may not be so much the amount of water but its properties that may drive the fruit to split. Geeze, all of my splits occured the morning after.

9/14/2005 7:57:23 PM

San Diego

when it comes down to it, we are growing "freaks" and we are pushing these freaks to the limit, bad things happen when you push something freaky to it's limit and beyond! lol. Seriously, how many double vines, mutations, and strange things happen with the ag now? too many too count, including splits on big fruit growing fast. Heck, my 950 boyton stumpless plant blew out with a blossom end split from too much growth and I put in balanced soil ammendments. It's only gonna get freakier with time;) Jimmy

9/14/2005 8:06:01 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Kyle, don't worry I wasn't trying to offend you. I'm just a little frustrated with the splits and I'm looking for answers as to why. The amount of rain I received this year was very very low. If it rained I wouldn't water, but I feed the plants the same amount of water day after day. None of my pumpkins split after a heavy rain. We only received 1 heavy rain all season. There was no fluctuations of my watering habits, nor did I feed them any extra nutrients. I just went with the soil and let it do it's own thing. It's just frustrating to see my fruits split with no real explanation to why they are doing it. I agree with cowpie that maybe with all this heat, smaller plants would have been better. Doc, maybe I'll take your advice next season and trim my plants down if we are going to get another hot season like this past summer or trim them back a little if they are growing too fast. Thanks for all your responses, I really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Phil

9/14/2005 10:27:04 PM

Sequim, WA

Phil, how many of the pumpkins you have that split have a UOW or DMG pumpkin in their family tree? I believe their are a lot of factors that are involved, but genetics play a very big part. Growing a pumpkin to 1000 lbs. or more and keeping it healthy is kind of like trying to grow a person to 1000 lbs. and keep them healthy. Is it possible? Sure, it's been done, but if the person has a history of heart disease, diabetes or high blood pressure in their family when you start this project how successful do you think you'll be? I think some are more brittle than others and when you get hot days and very cool nights somethings going to give. There are some seed stocks that I just won't touch anymore because I think it's too big of a risk. I hate putting all that effort into growing something and having nothing to show for it other than an oversized compost pile.

9/15/2005 1:57:27 AM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Tiller
I just logged onto the AGGC just to see if there was any with split pumpkins in their family tree. This season I planted the 1446 Eaton, 1420 LaRue, 842 Eaton & my own 926 Hunt. Three of the four split and I only have the 842 Eaton left. There seems to be one in each one of the seeds I planted. They are either the 845 or 723 Bobier. Except for my own 926 I planted. It was grown from the 1097.5 Beachy, which is a 845 x 723. Both parents were splitters. Maybe there is a connection. Thanks for your thoughts. Maybe I'll try one next season without a splitter in it's family tree and see if it splits. Take care.

Phil

9/15/2005 6:41:13 AM