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Ontario, Canada.

If you have a perfect soil sample for optimum growing conditions in 10%OM and High CEC with good tilth. What would the PH and PPM be for all Macro & Minor nutrients be.

My guess, is your Phosphorus level should be much lower than you think. Several research reports suggest that it is a waste of time adding beneficial microbes.

"Prior to inoculating soil with mycorrhizae, a soil test should be conducted. If phosphorus levels are greater than 50 ppm the addition of mycorrhizae will likely be ineffective.......Foliar applications of phosphorus therefore should be avoided when inoculating soil with mycorrhizae".

http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/PLANTS/index.html#http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/TRA/PLANTS/manure.html

12/5/2005 5:28:39 PM

NEPA [email protected] KB3QKV

Kahuna, in an article that I just read, http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=2 it said
"Undisturbed soils are full of beneficial soil organisms including mycorrhizal fungi. Research indicates, however, many common practices can degrade the mycorrhiza-forming potential of soil. Tillage, fertilization, removal of topsoil, erosion, site preparation, road and home construction, fumigation, invasion of non-native plants, and leaving soils bare are some of the activities that can reduce or eliminate these beneficial soil fungi. Reintroducing mycorrhizal fungi in areas where they have been depleted can dramatically improve plant establishment and growth.

Many routine nursery practices, such as fumigation and dousing with high levels of water and nutrients, produce non-mycorrhizal plants. When high levels of fertilizer and water are provided for non-mycorrhizal plants, they can thrive in this artificial growing media, but they are ill prepared to survive the eventual outplanted condition."

Some of these listed above are common practices of some pumpkin growers, I am included. With so much emphasis on ferts, fungicides, and watering, is it practical to an average grower such as myself to use mycorrhizae?

As for your guess and a lower level of phosphorus, I agree. Mycorrhizae fungi increase nutrient uptake not only by increase the surface absorbing area of roots, they also release powerful chemicals into the soil that dissolve hard to capture nutrients such as phosphorous, iron and other "tightly bound" soil nutrients. What these nutrients are, I do not know. Further reading may disclose this info.

12/5/2005 11:45:57 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

Very interesting.

12/6/2005 12:57:02 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Jerry, yes most often we do harn to the communities in our soil. That is why we add additional amounts at the planting and vining stages of our APG's life. But however, if you've got high levels of P it is not doing any good. The mycorrhizae will not thrive. So why are we adding them? It is a false hope unless your P level falls below the threshold microbe survivabilty. How do we cure this problem?

12/6/2005 9:02:23 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

What about only adding mycorrhizae to the stump/main root area. Dig a nutrient pit and fill it with all sorts of yummy stuff including the fungi. It will have an independant pH and controllable nutrient levels, at least for a while, before leaching occurs with the surrounding soil. This will give time for the mycorrhizae to establish itself at the most critical area of the roots. Plus, it will save a load of money. Just an idea. -Jim

12/6/2005 9:28:34 AM

Long Island,New York

Who knows Orangeneck...I mean we go through the trouble of taking multiple samples of our patch...mixing together, taking a representative sample to the lab, adjusting the patch to the soil test recommendations, .............and then make an unknown nutrient pit up to 10 feet around and 2-3 feet deep (not me..Im way to lazy) with all sorts of crazy stuff we dont treat the whole patch with and then compare fruit size to soil tests.....lol.....

12/6/2005 12:00:43 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Phosphorus is a byproduct of concentrated manure use.

12/6/2005 1:12:05 PM

[email protected]

Russ, we find 250 lbs of P per acre here on soils that have never seen supplemental manures. Manure does ass P & K, but soils are goofy in their own right first.

12/6/2005 1:57:27 PM

[email protected]

Manure does *ADD* P & K, but....

Jeez I gotta learn to proofread.

12/6/2005 1:58:27 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Yes, Steve that is possible, I agree. In such situations it appears highly unlikely that the addition of new spores is useful.

There is an uncanny corollary for every thing we research here at BP.com. I have found several instances which describe sodium bicarb levels of >50 ppm are detrimental to colonization.

12/6/2005 2:34:25 PM

Ontario, Canada.

This kind of distorts the symbiotic relationship we often here about. It was a nice theory. Most patches will never achieve these levels nor should they be required too.

The soil data provided to me by Andy Wolfe, links with this finding. Several growers have done extremely well elevated levels of P.

IMHO, Growing a large fruit is not dependant on colonization.

12/6/2005 2:46:58 PM

Ontario, Canada.

.....with elevated levels.... I must be dyslexic?

12/6/2005 2:49:46 PM

Western NY

here's my take on the stuff:

- it's probably a good kick start for seedlings (mroots, actino w/iron, ect)

- if you have a supply of GOOD compost or leaf mold that you add yearly, you'll have orders of magnitude above what you'll get from a jar anyway.

- if you're buying the good stuff, it's expensive. and if you use it and then add chemical fertilizers you've earned an honorary degree in wasting money.

I used it once years ago, and saw no improvement. I saw no root diseases (one of the benefits), but I also never had soil diseases previous to the addition. One of the liquid additions (Nitro-Maxx) that I continue to use supposedly has the spores in suspension (along with some other things). I like that product, and will continue to use it (until I run out sometime next year).

Overall, i'd say there's some situations where it may or may not help, but I consider it one of the "1% things".

12/6/2005 3:07:16 PM

NEPA [email protected] KB3QKV

Russ, I believe that even though we have been taught the big three (NPK)throughout our gardening lives, that we should resist adding large amoounts of P if mycorrhizae will be implemented into the pumpkin patch. That is just an uneducated opinion. Patches with high levels of P probably are not gardens using mycorrhizae. I am not a top notch gardener nor do I have a degree in agriculture so I cannot say that with a lot of P or with low P using mycorrhizae is a better patch. It is only IMHO that I respond. With everyone using so much manure, there must be high levels of P. I myself, do not understand mycorrhizae and the benefits. I bet my patch has a lot of P so I do not think that mycorrhizae will benefit my patch. What about the micros? What levels should they be at? Should micros be at a lower/higher level for an optimum soil when using mycorrhizae? Possible i guess. Why not, now P should be at a lower level to sustain mycorrhizae. I will continue to use higher levels of P until I understand mycorrhizae better and to form a more educated decision. BTW LOL I belong to MADD (dyslexic drivers against mothers) LMAO. Just kidding.

12/6/2005 3:15:11 PM

Alaska

I've tried just about everything that's come down the road and will continue trying new products as they pop up. Keeping my garden replenished by adding organic soil builders in the fall has keep my plants thriving year after year. If you want super sized veggies then you will need to supplement with Miracle Grow,Peters, whatever. Heavy feeders and I think pumpkins fall into that catagory, need extra feed. If you are in tune with your plants and are looking back at previous years growth charts and the weather. You should know when to givem that extra boost. Aerated Compost Tea is over rated and not worth the time and money spent. Mycorrhizae in it's native naturally occuring amounts and form can help. Adding an overblown micro herd to a well built organic soil will not do you any good, in my humble opinion. It just throws everything out of wack. More is not always better. If you just can't help yourself then put that stuff into the compost pile. It should help speed up the decomposition process and there by not tying up nutrients in the pumpkin patch. Later Scott.

12/6/2005 3:21:46 PM

Ontario, Canada.

If this were an episode of Myth Busters,I would have to say that Andy's, comments are very much correct. Use it only for seed starting. This myth is busted!

12/6/2005 5:09:23 PM

NEPA [email protected] KB3QKV

There seems to be a few opinions here. That is good. As I stated before, I am just an average pumpkin grower. You guys/ladies are just so knowledgeable. I hope this thread is not the end of the subject, which seems very interesting. I believe that for myself, there are too many variables in my patch to thrust into the questions. I just do not have the know how to proceed. It may take years. Russ, I do not think that your original question was answered yet. "What would the PH and PPM be for all Macro & Minor nutrients be." An interesting question. Now that I went over the thread again, seems like I was wondering basicly the same thing. I hope there is an answer. I would really like to know.

12/6/2005 6:07:32 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Sorry Jerry, in terms of PPM for sustainable colonization by mycorrhizae the target level would be lower than 50ppm, by sodium bicarb test. I would argue that higher levels of OM could raise this number. The proof is out there!

12/6/2005 7:02:04 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

this is great...but I cant read it?

12/6/2005 7:04:07 PM

NEPA [email protected] KB3QKV

Ok Russ, as you know my patch last year was in virgin soil and right or wrong, I am attempting to go organic and raise the OM level and higher levels of OM could raise the number? Does that mean that it is better or worse by raising the target number? I have always been taught that more OM is better. You know manure, leaves, grass clippings, egg shells, veggie peelings, etc. Which may be true upto a certain level of OM. The rest of the garden is where my dad had his garden but that was @ 10 yrs ago. I am attempting to create an environment in the garden like I did at the last house that I lived in, where turning the dirt over by hand was adequet. If possible I would like to read as much on this subject as possible. Perhaps it would assist in creating a very good environment for all our microbial buddies. This myth may be busted but still better to create a living community for the growing season. Any other suggested readings or comments??? How many f the top growers use mycorrhizal fungi? Maybe more important, how many of the top soil guys/ladies use mycorrhizal fungi?

12/6/2005 10:16:39 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Seed starting in artificial medium seems like an obvious use as they contain no mycorrhiza to start with but BEWARE if the fungi are killed by toxic nutient levels when planted out the roots that they are attached to may die as well.

12/7/2005 3:13:37 AM

[email protected]

From theoretical to practical.


Soil biology was a required study when I went to school but between transfers I was able to avoid it for a while. this was not a popular course of study. Evntually having no choice I had to take the course. Being young & ignorant I fell head over heels into it. Then I met a State Ag agent that convinced me of the futility of longterm biological management; his having seen several careers wasted when field practice could not follow lab & greenhouse observations. His theory being that those of us in the commercial field of modern agronomy have no business recommending products that cannot create an acceptable return on investment for the grower. This is absolute & no-brainer stuff so like a lot of people in my position, I dumped bio-inoculants. Others who stayed the course were deemed unreliable & cast aside.

Much has changed in the past 20 years. We now have irrefutable evidense that certain species of bacteria can & do supress disease. Some have even been registered with the EPA as reduced-risk pesticides. So back to biology I went this time with the financial clout of sucessful commercialism to leverage study.

Mycorrhizae culturing wasn't new or unknown anymore. Lots of good data was available & some labs were opening their doors to help persuade the curious. My having gotten deep into Arboriculture meant that a working knowledge of mycorrhizal inoculants was mandatory. Being in & having friends from big companies made this easy.

The verdict:

If mycorrhizae populations are low, identify then fix the cause. Only then reinoculate.

continued

12/7/2005 7:44:17 AM

[email protected]

Always inoculate soiless mixes such as Pro-Mix from Premier if that is your seed starter of choice. There is little harm in using surplus inoculant on the transplant but this is probably a waste of inoculant.

Despite claims to the contrary, real field & lab analysis proves that proper use of even mineral fertilizers does enhance innoculation results in many cases. Improper use is devastating to both plants & mycorrhizae.

Bacterial inoculants are still easier to use & more commercially viable than mycorrhizae.

At worst, the wrong species of mycorrhizae can kill some higher order plants (mostly confiers). Other have so little impact on plant quality that their monitoring & management is still considered an unbearable expense with no return on investment.

After all these years no inoculant manages to change the treated soil's biological profile for more than 3 weeks.

My personal opinion is that about 95% of field applied inoculants are of no value to anyone but the merchant who sold it. The exception is when dealing with a sterilized soil in which case those first few weeks need all the help they can get.

I still enjoy this field of study & will not give it up. There is still much more to be learned & we will see more effective bio-controls in the future.

But on the opposite extreme: Personally I'd rather engage in a lerge scale hydroponic experiment than continue down the brown dirt modification road. I think there is much more to gain in this discipline. However AGs are just too big for my budget & schedule at this time so this will have to wait.

12/7/2005 7:44:25 AM

ENGLAND

Ken or John PLEASE shrink this thread down in width, i NEED to print this important and interesting information/discussion but its difficult to read on such a wide scale.

Regards
Mike

12/7/2005 4:06:17 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Mike CTRL and SCROLL your Mouse

12/7/2005 4:32:48 PM