From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Nashville, TN

OK, I've got some ideas for the spring to come. What to run them by you guys for your opinions....

1. In Feb, we will spread and disk in these huge mountains of Barn waste that has been composting. At this time Lyme will also be added - and soil samples taken for tests.

2. In mid-May, I will hit the pumpkin patches heavily with Roundup and then lay down some pelletized anti-seed germination chemical (to reduce weeds).. favorite brands??

3. In mid-May, I will start my GPs and GSs in Peat Pots with good miracle grow starting mix. This way I can write the variety on the pot itself (I suspect the kids may have switched some tage on me last year....Want to eliminate that)

4. On June 1st, I will plant the seedlings (pot and all) in the patches, lay some hose down, then cover all the open areas with paper feed bags & hay/straw (weed supression - soil moisture retention).. should I use soaker hoses - or just flip the spray hoses upside down? (have a bunch of the spray hoses already)

12/26/2005 8:48:06 AM

Abbotsford, B.C

Hmmmm, I'll let some others elaborate more, but I think there are a few iffy sports about your planned ideas. #1 seems fine to me, but I'm not so sure about #2. I don't really like the idea of putting anti-germination pellets into the soil. That stuff is designed for grass, not the extremely fibrous-rooted roots of giant pumpkin plants. And I'm not so sure that dumping a whole bunch of Round-up onto the patch is such a great idea too, I'm not sure how long the residual period of the stuff is, but I still would be careful with it. Also, I'm not sure what the starting date for your area is, but I can tell you that you don't want to be putting the seedlings into the ground two weeks after starting them. I have made that mistake before, and it will severely slow down early growth, because the roots start out so fast that the peat pot will actually sort of block up the roots. Again, I'm sure others will comment, but be careful with that anti-germination pellets, they could be potentially devasting, and I don't think I would want to take such a risk.

Cameron

12/26/2005 12:42:15 PM

Simi valley, ca

Agree with you camera! except the round up may be ok if kept on mostly the weeds. & yes in only a couple days the roots will be getting crowded in pots--not good, In only 1-3 extra days the roots could have traveled quite far, let alone an extra week!! Grow em big--Glenn "',;:><//\|*#@...

12/26/2005 3:34:24 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Are you putting the lime on before or after the soil test? And why didn't you till the barn waste in last fall rather than waiting until now? And why not use the bags etc for weed supression rather than the pellets? And there is no way a peat pot can be big enough for a giant pumpkin to grow in for more than a very few days, even a gallon container is not big enough for 2 weeks?

12/26/2005 3:44:09 PM

Montoursville, PA

I flat out refuse, to help without a soil test in front, of any decision that might be made. I would not use either Roundup or any pre-emergence weed killer. That does not take a soil test. Common sense would keep those two out of any patch all, of the time.

12/26/2005 5:58:37 PM

Montoursville, PA

Agree with Lub-a-dub...manures should go on in the fall.

This person looks, to me, like the one who jumpped off the Empire State Building. As he passed the halfway point, to his demise he noted that things were OK so far.

12/26/2005 6:03:27 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

You gotta think before you jump!
How many acres are we talking about here?

12/26/2005 6:29:49 PM

Indiana

I say its better to get the manure tilled in whenever you can than not at all. I would add gypsum rather than lime unless you need to raise the pH. Get the soil tests done now to see what you might need. You only need Roundup if you have growing weeds, contact with soil neutralizes Roundup + it only works well above 70 degrees or so. There are some preemergent herbicides that will work on pumpkins just do a Google search for them Sandia comes to mind (BUT) I would never use them on competition pumpkins! although that is up to you. The spray hoses work fine upside down. You need at least 1 gallon pots for starting AG's the Miarcle grow works great as a starting mix I would still only keep them in the pots until they get their first true leaves. Just take some time and research each of the things you want to do and you will learn what will work and what wont.
Steve

12/26/2005 6:49:27 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

I'm wondering why you start you seeds so late. I see that alot of growers start seeds at the end of April and in the ground by May 1st. Seems to me that you will be 1 month late if you do not plant till June. Secondly, take the seedlings out of the pots and plant them in loose soil, that will assist the rooting system to spread out quickly.

I must agree with Doc, no roundup and no kill-all chemicals. I'd rather have weeds than risk other problems associated with harsh chemicals.

12/26/2005 7:38:38 PM

Norton, MA

Right, to be even with the competition you should be in the patch by May 12-15 at the latest. AleX Noel.

12/26/2005 8:39:03 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

1)GET A SOIL SAMPLE ASAP. Add lime or gypsum according to results. Spread and disk now. If this "barn waste" has woodchips as part of it's contents, expect the need of additional nitrogen for the season.
2)I personally use/have used Round-up for years before AND during(with a cloth tip) the season of both my AGs and commercial pumpkins. This translocated herbicide has no residual soil activity. Command, Curbit and Sandea, have all shown to be effective for pre-emergence weed control for pumpkins, HOWEVER, the tolerance to these herbicides is very variety specific and I know of no field studies on AGs. Any field studies on AGs will most likely emanate from one of our own "fields". I personally will have a test patch this year(non-comps!).
3-4)I use a quality "seed" starting mix as apposed to a "plant" starting mix. I personally would not suggest the use of peat pots as they do not always break down before cramping the roots. Also, optimally you don't want to keep a seedling potted beyond it's first true leaf stage. I believe the hay/straw use can be argued from both sides. My side...nope. A cheap misting system may serve you better in the long run than your spray hoses, as it can also help provide a reduced temperature micro-climate in your/our hot summers. And last but not least, if your intended maturation date for your pumpkins coincides with Halloween vs. a much earlier "weigh-off", a June 1 planting date is fine for us Southern growers. Have fun during your second AG season, BF

12/27/2005 1:40:34 AM

Follansbee, Wv

1. If the barn waste is composted, there is nothing wrong with tilling it into the patch in the spring. I strongly recommend a soil test before adding any lime. If lime is needed, adding it in Feb will have little early season effect since it takes several months to break down.

2. I don't think residual Round-Up in the soil will hurt anything, since it must be absorbed by the leaves of a plant to work. I don't know about the pelletized anti-germ stuff.

3. Mid May is too late in Tn for seed starting. Peat pots are too small for AG's:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=30537

Start there and read the next several entries.

4. The peat pots will restrict early root development. If you choose to use them, remove them or score them heavily before planting. The bags and straw are a good idea. I would avoid using hay since it will be like planting weeds into the patch. I use only overhead watering in my garden. This is because I can monitor how much water is getting on the patch with the use of strategically placed rain guages. It also gives complete coverage. Since you never know where the roots are, it's important to cover all patch area to even watering. Also, contrary to popular belief, water does NOT promote Powdery Mildew. In fact water on the leaves will INHIBIT PM from forming (of course Downy Mildew is a different story). In any case, watering style is a personnal preference.

12/27/2005 7:45:28 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Maybe you are way up in the Smokey Mtns. in Tn?

Last frost here is Apr. 15; I'm starting a few ~April 01 April, and the rest ~April 22 or later. To keep the exiting part going longer and to have some for weighoffs, some for Halloween. Good luck -Jim

12/27/2005 4:36:34 PM

[email protected]

If this is a competition patch then I wouldn't be using any pre-emegent herbicide at all. Mid-May is after the emergence of a lot of summer anual weeds around here. However if the soil is clean when you apply it, then if watered in the barrier will still set. Maybe you can just skip the herbicide at the planting mounds & limit its use to rows & edges.

12/27/2005 8:36:56 PM

Netherlands

Round Up is illegal in the Netherlands. How about in other countries?

12/28/2005 2:29:12 AM

ENGLAND

Brad
It's legal here. It's also the most environmentaly friendly chemical Weedkiller to use as it is neutralised upon contact with the natural bacteria in the soil. I have used Roundup GC on a weed wiper to whithin an inch of other plants with no bed effects at all. However, if it is used on a very warm day it is best not to use it too close to plants you want to keep as when it evaporates the fumes can harm plants nearby. I know this applies to most liquids regardless to their use but just an impotrant thing to note as we are talking Weedkillers here.

12/28/2005 7:09:58 AM

Waquoit Mass

someone needs to buy a book lol

12/28/2005 8:43:16 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Dutch Brad,what is the source of your info on Round up?
Just seems unlikely to me that Glyphosphate is banned in any EU country.

Mark

12/28/2005 12:02:43 PM

Netherlands

Sorry for the mis-information. The ban on Round Up is currently being discussed and has not yet passed as a law.
The ban is currently in some townships and one or two provinces are trying to get a ban on it. Most townships are only allowed to use it watered down.

The stuff is toxic and both American and Dutch studies have proven that it kills off many animals and insects that drink water from ditches and rivers downstream from where it has been used. In Japan it has caused about 60 deaths. Moral of the story, don't drink it.

For people it has proven to cause cancer, hyperactivity and some other problems. The manufacturer has been charged eight times for false advertising in Holland alone.

12/28/2005 1:58:11 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

We will have to wait and see,many times I have seen todays safe chemical become tomorrows banned one.

12/28/2005 6:22:42 PM

Montoursville, PA

If it kills that high, in the food chain, I wonder what takes place on and within the biology, of the soil?

The fact that one can plant seed within a few hours is not a quality statement. Neither the makers of Roundup type killers have said they do not ruin soil biology. They can't say that!!!

While our townships freely spew it about their roadsides any land owner may stop it's placement, by simply notifying the township authorities. Some landowners exercise that right. Most do not at this time exercise that right.

The public service guys do not use the herbicides, in this part, of our community.

12/28/2005 7:32:01 PM

Nashville, TN

I've pulled the soil tests prior to the addition of the organic matter.. thanks for the advise..

A little elaboration....

My weeds are Buffalo & St Augustine grasses - which are my lawn and pasture... Tilling only spreads them around - and the damned St Augustine seeds germinate and grow right through my feed bags halfway through the growing season (St Augustine is related to crab grass...) The only way to control them (according to my State Agriculture department) is to use a systemic weed killer (roundup) right after they 'green up' in the spring - them lay down pre-emergent weed killer (suppresses the St Augustine germination)

As for the 'late start' - I tried an early start last year, lost MOST of the first batch due to a 3 day FREEZE at the middle of May.. Had a better go around with the direct sown seed in late May..

I'm NOT growing for competition.. I'm growing for Halloween. the giants generally go to local schools and I ended up selling the smaller ones. I've found they start rotting at 75-90 days - so I have to time them to be at 50-60 days on Oct 1st.. Then they'll still be good for Halloween..

As for the Peat moss pots.. They easily crumble right apart when saturated - I've used them for most of my other crops with great success.. and since the seeds I used last year - seemed to take 7-10 days germination prior to second leaves, I figured the two week idea seemed to make sense.

12/29/2005 7:47:27 AM

Nashville, TN

Oops forgot to mention....

the barns waste is currently being properly composted and turned. I don't believe in dumping it straight into the garden (unless it's on top on my 1/8 acre of Cannas - those things LOVE fresh manure!!)

Takes proper composting to get the manure, shavings, hay, wood chips, etc... to decompose well enough for use... Looks like top quality potting soil when it's ready!

12/29/2005 7:50:38 AM

Nashville, TN

Also forgot.... I'm looking at 1.4 acres of pumpkins this year. That's why I'm not going to even contemplate trying to hoe/hand weed them...

And the Potato beetles love to hide in weeds!

12/29/2005 7:58:03 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Poast is a herbicide for grasses. That is safe for Pumpkins.

12/29/2005 8:06:00 AM

Anamosa, IA [email protected]

As far as the weed killers are concerned, I have no problem with Roundup if it is used properly. I have used it without any problems. In fact, it it the most used herbicide in American agriculture at this time. It only kills when it is absorbed by green growing plants, not roots, so if it is used preplant or post planting with the plants shielded it won't hurt. It will not have any pre-emergence control at all. It will attach to clay particles in the soil so it won't runoff, and soil bacteria will break it down in a matter of a few days. The only problem I have heard is that it has been so over-used that some weeds are building up a resistance to it. For that reason, I wouldn't use it every year. I see an advantage in protecting your soil structure, organic matter and earthworms by eliminating a tillage pass in the spring.

I have used Preen (treflan) for pre-emerge weed control, but not right near the main plant, and not until it has at least 4 or 5 true leaves. It works wonders on foxtail, but some weeds are resistant. Some people say that it will affect pumpkin roots. I now just use it to keep the weeds off my electric fence.

Last year I experimented with corn gluten meal. It is environmentally friendly and so safe that you can eat it. It provides 10% nitrogen, so you have to work it into your fertilization plan as well. It caused me no problems and even helped hold down the Preen resistant weeds. Research I have read says that it only affects the new root system of very small seeds and shouldn't harm anything that roots from a large seed or from a vine.

12/29/2005 8:34:16 AM

[email protected]

Ahhhhh....now I understand. St Augustine & Buffalo are spreading by Rhizomes. I doubt very much that you're allowing them to grow in height tall enough to make many seed heads. So seedas ren't much of a problem. Tilling is chopping up the rhizomes into *sprigs* which is how some of the C4 (warmseason) grasses are established. Once a rhizome is cut into sections, each one that has a "node" (swolen spot) is ready to regrow back into a new grass plant.

Pre-emegeant herbicides only work on germinating seeds. I'm sure there are *some* seeds present (anuals like Foxtail, Crabgrass, etc). But you need to spray Roundup later in the year AFTER active growth resumes, wait a couple weeks, & then till it under. This doesn't fit the growers schedule & so folks aren't getting the results they want.

12/29/2005 9:00:21 AM

Nashville, TN

Buffalo is Rhizomes.. St Augustine (annual self-seeding crab grass relative) starts seeding at 3-4" of height at the end of summer. I like both grasses - buffalo is native, and S.A. is fairly nutritious/drought tolerant/and handles heavy grazing/traffic.

But they're both a pain-in-the-a** to eliminate from garden areas!

I'm curious about this Corn Gluten meal - where can you purchase it? How much per acre? How often must it be applied

12/29/2005 2:41:16 PM