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Lake Elmo, Minnesota

This theory came up in my recent posting (i.e. that using any of the common fungicides: Eagle, Banner Maxx, Compass, Daconil, Manzate; would kill all natural and introduced fungi thus negating the purchase of mycorrhiazae.) I believe that Innoculating on May 1st (day seed is planted) and at transplant, May 10th, is approximately 6-7 weeks before my first possible fungicide spraying. Lots of time for benefits to be used by plant. Also, my fungicide sprayings are on the leaves above ground and I can't imagine that large amounts leach into the soil to affect a substantial portion of the root system. So, what does this experienced group think about this question???

2/2/2006 8:28:39 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Andy, "Mycorrhizae, Best growing conditions" an earlier topic on this board was very informative. This is not a theory. While I can't speak for each individual fungicide listed above, it is well documented that these types of products are harmful to mycorrhizal. Steve, raised this issue last year at the Niagara Seminar.

Further studies have also revealed that high levels of phosphorus above 100ppm are detrimental to the soils fungal colonies. It has been pretty much determined that additional quantities of mycorrhizae or direct applications after planting into the garden are pretty much a waste of time in soils with high levels of P.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=143120

2/2/2006 8:58:25 AM

[email protected]

Andy,

Been meaning to reply to your email but have been very busy. No matter since a public reply keeps more of us aware.

Contact fungicides such as Daconil, Mancozeb, Curalan, etc have no impact on Mycorrhyzae.

DMI sterol inhibitors are the more popular group (Banner, Eagle, Bayleton etc) & they can & do kill Mycorrhyzae *IF* the come in contact. So if flooding treatments (for a root disorder) aren't justified, then don't apply this way. If an applicator has an unnecessarily heavy hand & sprays beyond runoff, then the surplus that hits the soil will damage the hyphal strands in that area. Do they grow back? Sure they do. But if flood-like applications aren't needed, we shouldn't apply that way.

This is pretty basic stuff for farmers & other commercial applicators since what hits the ground is wasted profits. But in our quest for perfectiion we are sometimes our own soils worst enemy.

I posted a list here once of the various effects of popular fungicides. A search should turn it up but I need to get a mouse on this new laptop first.

2/2/2006 5:58:24 PM

Syracuse, NY

hey--i got a question.
if we are inoculating the soil or the nodes and
the planting hole with a beneficial Mycorrhizae,
doesn't that help our Good Guy Mycorrhizae
get a foothold so that we shouldn't NEED to apply fungicides
in any great quantity because the fungus we are utilizing
IS the Good Guy? like, if you had a friend in high school
that was bigger than the bully that was after you, wouldn't you be 'okay' because you kept being your friend's
friend? i keep thinking it will be a good idea to inoculate the ENTIRE growing area with Bio-Grow Endo Plus.
just gotta get another 25 pounds of it, i guess, lol! ??eric

2/2/2006 7:08:02 PM

New Hampshire

http://www.planthealthcare.com/feov.html

http://www.planthealthcare.com/feov.html

These two link might help even though they have some conflicting info

2/2/2006 7:35:12 PM

New Hampshire

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=396&mark=fungicides&cp=1

Here is the second one

2/2/2006 7:37:04 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Pal, nu-B here, but think that some of the fungi don't come from the soil but are airborne...PM, I think is one of those...no expert here!?!?!? All input is a learning experience. Thanks Jim Peace, Wayne

2/2/2006 10:27:12 PM

Syracuse, NY

indeed! i will never forget the one time i actually looked
STRAIGHT UP and saw, for the first time since becoming
a grower, all the stuff that was flying around in the air
for pretty much as far as i could see.....dandelion seeds,
insects, countless little floatng pieces of something...
AT THE TIME i was concerned with all the weed seeds that were probably flying around up there that had an eye on my patches, so to speak...lol...anyway, my plan(t) in the near future is to protect my plants from the PM (i do not yet know the difference between a mildew, PM, and a fungus,
Mycorrhizae, but i will look it all up soon) with Floating Row Cover as my greenhouse covering, and possibly inoculating the entire growing area of one plant with
BioGrow Endo Plus, to hopefully have a knockout of a plant and pumpkins growing on it. i mean, if you have a "man" on every base, how can you NOT get a home run? pretty hard not to i would think. FRC did keep the plants that were growng under it PM-free for at LEAST 2 weeks beyond when the plants outside that area contracted it---could have been indefinitely had i closed THAT end of the greenhouse---
yeah, thanks 'bears'---for cracking us up as well! eric g

2/3/2006 1:27:19 AM

Montoursville, PA

Reguardless, of what anyone says all non-biodegradable elements including fungicides flood, to the soil, from the effects, of rain, overspray and overhead watering. It is frankly just that simple. Do it enouogh over enough of years and your soil biology will very definately be altered.

The only thing forgiving is the fact that those non-biodegradable chemicals go down stream via runoff to your streams, rivers, bays and oceans. It is frankly just that simple. Those chemicals are ingested into the whole food chain.

The answers and corrections will never be frankly just that simple.

2/4/2006 5:17:59 PM

[email protected]

Hey Andy,

I found the pdf I was looking for you. This is from Plant Health care.

http://www.planthealthcare.com/pdfs/TB-1%20Fungicides.pdf

FUNGICIDE EFFECTS ON MYCORRHIZAE

Mycorrhizal Fungi can be quite sensitive to some fungicides, but not all. Some fungicides can actually stimulate mycorrhizal fungi, while other fungicides are
detrimental. PHC has compiled the following lists of fungicides for which published data exists regarding their effect on mycorrhizal fungi. Of course, no one has been able to test any fungicide against all mycorrhizal fungi species, so some basic assumptions were made in the compilation of these lists:

1. For this list a fungicide was considered to be inhibitory if it was reported to inhibit, regardless of other contradictory reports.

2. The two major groups of mycorrhizal fungi, VAM and Ecto, are treated separately, as fungicides detrimental to one group, need not be detrimental to the other.

Fungicide Effects on VAM CHART

No Inhibitory Effect:

Carbamate (Ferbam, Fermate)
Carbendazim (Bavistan)
Chloroneb (Tersan, Demosan)
Chlorothalonil (Bravo, Daconil-2787,
Exotherm)
Difolatan (Sulfonimide, Difosan,
Captafol)
Mancozeb (Dithane M-45, Manzate; Fore)
Manate (Dithane M-22, Maneb)
Rovral (Chipco-26019)
Thiabendazole (Mertect)
Thiram (Tersan 75, Arasan)
Topsin-M (Easout, Fungo, Duosan)
Triforine (Funginex)

*There are some published reports indicating that these fungicides actually stimulated VAM development. (See Notes below.)

continued

2/5/2006 11:10:55 PM

[email protected]

Inhibitory Effect:

*Aliette (Fosetyl-Al)*
Benomyl (Benlate, Tersan-1991)
Captan (Orthocide)
Copper Oxychloride Sulfate (CDCS)
Formalin (Formaldehyde)
*Metalaxyl (Subdue, Ridomil)*
PCNB (Terrachlor, Tri-PCNB)
Phaltan (Folpet; Thiophal)
Terrazole (Truban, ETMT)
Tilt (CGA-65250, Banner, Propiconazol)
Thiophanate Methyl (Cleary 3336)
Triadimefon (Bayleton)
Vitavax (Carboxin, DCMO)

Notes:

>> For this list, a fungicide is considered to be inhibitory if there exists a published report documenting inhibition, regardless of other contradictory
reports.

>> For this list, a fungicide is considered to have no detrimental effect whether it had no effect, or whether it had a positive effect on mycorrhizal development.

>> There are often many different trade names for the same fungicidal chemical. There may be other names not shown here.

>> No fungicide eradicates mycorrhizae; they only decrease development for a short time after application. The time of this effect depends on the duration in which the chemical persists in the environment.

>> Most foliar spray fungicides, if applied correctly (except those that are systemic, like Bayleton), do not affect mycorrhizae because the fungicide does not come in contact with the mycorrhizae in the soil (in significant
quantities).

Other Pesticides:

>> There are no reports of any insecticide or herbicide, applied at label rates, affecting mycorrhizal development.

2/5/2006 11:11:02 PM

Lake Elmo, Minnesota

Steve:
Once again, you provide relevant data for growers to make decisions. I appreciate the research and willingness to share with pumpkin growers.

2/6/2006 2:15:41 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Tremor, thanks for all the info...my proof was in last years patch...plants with Myco had massive roots and vines...Tanner plant (906) had vine at crown that I could not reach around with both hands...pulling up roots in fall was almost impossible...ran deep and long...even in my heavy clay soil...I will use it again this year...and sprinkle some in every leaf node as I bury them this year. Thanks again for being a consistent source of info...sure does help us nu-B's. Peace, Wayne

2/6/2006 9:01:30 PM