Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Alaska

CT is snake oil, sold by snake oil salesman!! BEWARE! Keep adding the compost to the patch and forget the tea.

3/14/2006 9:55:29 PM

Bull Taco

Snoqualmie, Wash.

I'm being sponsored this year by a company out of Seattle, Wa. -SoilSoup. They use worm castings as the dry part of the compost, and the tea part is made with liquid seaweed as the base, guano, kelp, yacca, and other benifitial elements. I would guess that the effort will benifit my patch. There is a blender used to add air to the soup. Ron Wallace back east uses this system and has increased his weight by 300 lbs. I'll be setting up my system in the next week and will use it to enrich my soil prior to planting. This is not my fert. program., only helping out my soil and the plants. Jerri J.

3/14/2006 11:07:34 PM

Alaska

What is the basic building block of CT? Compost right? If it ain't in the tea then it wasn't in the compost to begin with. By adding sugars and oxygen you get this overblown microheard that's out of whack with the soil your adding it to. As soon as the air pump is shut off and the stuff hits the ground there is a major die off. Take all of those things you are using to make the tea and put them into the patch. You will get better results and more bang for the buck. The bottom line is you still need a nutrient source and adding CT to a soil lacking in nutrients isn't the answer. CT can not unlock and make avaiable something that's not there!! If you have a nicely organically amended soil you do not need a snakeoil like CT, the microheard is already there and in a more normal range needed by the plants. IMHO,Later Scott.

3/15/2006 1:49:04 PM

basketcase

Dallas, Oregon

do not waste your time.no scientific studies have shown any real benefit to the use of compost tea. there are to many variables in making it.i have made it a few different ways with good and bad results.leave the snake oil alone. you are just as likely to introduce something bad to your soil than good. it's not worth it. i can guarantee you that jack larue does not use CT.

3/15/2006 7:23:01 PM

UnkaDan

I have and will use compost tea with all my growing operations, it is and will be a fundamental building block of "organic growing". Healthy/balanced plants are less prone to disease and insect damage, simple as that. When attacked they are also more likely to recover.
As to the statement that there has "never been a study done",,just run a google search and you will find there have been thousands done at all of the ag schools in the world.
I do agree it is NOT the foundation,,but it IS one of the key building blocks in any organic fertilizer program. Anyone that says otherwise is ill informed or worse....
Once again, I suggest that you run a "search" and spend a few hours/days reading the research reports that have been conducted on the subject.
Then make your own choices as to whether to invest a small amount of time in a product that is basically no cost to to you but that,,a little time and materials you already have on hand. Even the best patches run low on readily available nutrients by midseason supplementing only makes sense.
Then we have the kelp and fish crowd,,I lump them with the "tea" makers as well, and now I kick over the "organic" soap box and step aside.

3/15/2006 9:19:07 PM

Bears

New Hampshire

Just a note of clarification. I don't know if people got the impression that I said Jack uses CT but that is not what I said or meant.
Any body out there who has good results with it? I used it the last 2 seasons and had some nice pumpkins. I don't know if the CT had anything to do with it. Maybe I will experiment with it on half of my field pumpkin crop.

3/15/2006 9:20:51 PM

Tom B

Indiana

Most of the Rhode Islanders used it...enough to convince me

Tom

3/16/2006 12:49:08 AM

MontyJ

Follansbee, Wv

Anyone who thinks compost tea is a foundation for organic growing is certainly mis-informed. If you think it's worthless "snake oil", you are also mis-informed. As unkadan suggested, Google the term and start reading. I use compost tea as both a drench and foliar feed. The small amount of ingredients needed to make a seasons supply of tea would not have any impact on my 2000 sq ft of patch, so there is certainly no "bang for the buck" to be had by applying it to the soil.
Compost tea applied as a foliar feed has been shown to reduce foliar disease pressures in many studies. Used properly, tea is not likely to burn leaves like Miracle Grow can.
As Tom said, a lot of the Rhode Island growers use it as well. You crtainly can't argue with their results. As for me, I grew a 1095 last year. Another grower, Don Chambers, helped me load it up for the Canfield weigh-off. He remarked on how green and helthy the plant still looked in early October. Of course, I don't attribute it all to compost tea, I also try to maintain a healthy soil. Compost tea is only one piece of a good growing program.
You can also look at the Agro-K program. Is that "snake oil" too? I don't use Agro-K, but I believe part of the program involves Symbrew, a type of tea. A lot of growers use Agro-K with outstanding results.
If you don't use compost tea, that's your decision. Everyone has a different growing style. Compost tea is certainly not a magic bullet, but it's definately not "snake oil" either.

3/16/2006 6:33:04 AM

pap

Rhode Island

to call soil soup or manure tea a "snake oil" is a bit strong.
we used it last year and our plants for the most part were much healthier looking then in past years.plus i liked the fact that with a professional system such as soil soup company you can make up to 25 gallons in around 24 to 36 hrs during the summer.
we also used it as a foliar spray on our many flower beds and noticed the annuals seemed much greener with larger flower heads.
is it a majic bullet? no, its just another small piece of the puzzle.if your soil is in great shape and well balanced adding soil soup just inhances it a bit, likewise if your soil is like a gravel pit then adding soil soup will do next to nothing for your program.
we will continue to use it again in 2006
pap

3/16/2006 6:40:57 AM

Marv.

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Okay. How about some of the recipes?

3/16/2006 8:05:02 AM

Bull Taco

Snoqualmie, Wash.

I went into SoilSoup yesterday in Seattle to pick up a brewer to be givenaway as a door prize for the PGVG seminar. Their ratio is 6 gal. brewer- 11/2 cup worm compost to 6 oz. soup solutions. In a 25 gal. brewer which SoilSoup gave me to use as a test, the ratio is 21/2 cups worm compost to 24 oz. soup solution. Jerri J.

3/16/2006 10:11:59 AM

Alaska

OK? How many current and former WR holders uses CT (snakeoil)and thinks it's a huge reason for their success? I've tried two different highly regarded products highly praised by the CT forum on Yahoo. Did side by side comparision studies and was not impressed, at all. As I said you will get way more out your time and money if you bump up the soil, forget the TEA!! Real scientific studies are few and far between. How can you get repeatable data when there are soooooooo many variables in making an exact batch of Tea each and every time? I just don't like to see folks waste their time and money. On the other hand if those that choose to use it and believe in it, well we will see ya at the scales!! Five time current WR holder and non CT user, Scott.

3/16/2006 1:52:26 PM

OK....I can't stay out of this any more. This should be taken for whatever the reader determines it to be. I am neither for or against the use of Compost Tea & the reader is cautioned that the following was not a cucurbit study.

I sat down for a while today with a well educated (degree but not PhD) manufacturers rep of a very reputable bio-inoculant company over a nice swordfish lunch.

This company had considered entering the compost tea brewer market as it would have been a good fit with their core business model & market. So off to the edus & private laboratories to run some real scientific tests.

They made teas to some of Dr. Elaine Ingham recipes uses the finest certified composts. They applied these teas to a variety of ornamental plants the same way Scott did. The treated plants were grown right next to untreated checks for 2 consecutive growing seasons. Unlike 99.9% of the CT fans, they performed detailed CT tests to insure that their teas were turning out as intended ($185 per test by The Soil Food Web, Inc for those who can afford it).

The company pulled the plug on testing since no changes in plant health had ever been observed.

Of the teas they produced many were NOT up to spec even though no expense was spared to purchase "certified compost" & their use of state-of-the-art brewers. To insure better Quality Control, they began to use their own compost but this effort yielded only a slight improvement in Tea quality & no improvement in plant health.

continued

3/16/2006 7:02:09 PM

There were some deciduous trees that benefited. These were trees grown mostly in compacted soils of poor aeration. It was noted that a greater plant health improvement was observed as soon as the subject plants received an improved soil by vertimulching. To this they deduced that the fungal organisms in the CT were mimicking the really good soil biology that proliferates in good compost amended soils.

To Spudley Scott's credit, every single thing he has said in this thread was restated today over lunch. Just with a little more tact. LOL

My rep seems to think that most of the improvement that backyard gardeners see when using CT is not the result of the Tea. Rather he thinks it is the result of NOT spraying other stuff to excess which may otherwise cause plant injury.

I've asked for the written reports but since no public grant money was spent I might never see it. Unlike edu's working with grants who are required to publish data, many corps choose to not share the data they collect with their own private resources. We'll see. Most corps who abandon reasearch projects never bother to assemble all of their data into a publishable format since doing so would mean spending money on a closed project.

3/16/2006 7:02:15 PM

Marv.

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Tremor, who paid for the lunch?
Marv

3/16/2006 9:04:11 PM

UnkaDan

I guess one of my points is related to this part of what you discussed today "My rep seems to think that most of the improvement that backyard gardeners see when using CT is not the result of the Tea. Rather he thinks it is the result of NOT spraying other stuff to excess which may otherwise cause plant injury."
The "other stuff" always costs $$$$ however CT can be made from things most gardeners have on hand and have generated anyway. The rep admitted that improvements were shown.
Just dumping poop in a barrel and pouring it on will have some devastating results. Follow proven recipes, research, and as in all things try on a select area, not the entire garden or patch.
I personally prefer avoid supporting chemical company's whenever possible for a multitude of reasons.

3/16/2006 9:09:37 PM

The rep noted improvements on soils that were so bad none of us would even think of growing in. Once the soils were improved, the advantages of tea were greatly exceeded. So as Scott pointed out, fix the soil instead.

The company doesn't market any chemicals & never has. They just do inoculants.

The point is that there are no proven Compost Tea recipes.

To date I have never seen a published & peer reviewed scientific study that proves an increase in crop yield that was attributed to the use of compost tea. I really WANT to see such data since it would be cheaper & more fun to grow this way. So I really break chops on these guys trying to get them to publish the results of their claims.

The fact Compost Tea can be brewed cheaply is not justification to use it if no quantifiable gains can be had from doing so.

Marv, We held an open-house for our customers today. Five manufacturers reps picked up the $1400 food bill. One of our warehouse men cooked 120 NY Strips, 150 lbs of Sword Fish & hot dogs & burgers when the good stuff ran out. Wives made salads & stuff. We bought the beverages, plates, etc.

The bio-inoculant guy & I took our very candid conversation away from the crowd. He knows that I have been privy to some very revealing inoculant studies. I am very fortunate to have been involved in these non-biased non-corporate funded studies. The results haven't always been favorable but have been getting better.

Manufactured inoculants do carry two very significant advantages over home brews.

1.) Guaranteed Analysis
2.) Proven quantifiable results.

Bacterial soil inoculants work well enough to obtain EPA registration for disease control. You don't get federal registration unless real-science efficacy data has been collected, published & peer reviewed.

Two manufacturers (that I am aware of) guarantee their product analysis in writing &/or via ISO9001.

3/16/2006 10:39:53 PM

pap

Rhode Island

Who is this five time world record holder and non compost tea user scott? am i reading that correctly? a five time world record holder ?
Sounds a lot like he has a chip on his shoulder for some reason? Very strong opinion for sure?

I say do whatever makes you feel right and has given you the best results in the past.

Funny though, for those of you that got our sngpg newsletter this week theres an original article written in the early 1900`s by a gentleman that brought the worlds first 365 lb pumpkin to the worlds fair in chicago in 1893. Then brought A 403 lb squash to the st louis exposition in 1904. (BOTH UNHEARD OF WEIGHTS FOR THERE TIME)
A quote from his own writings " Now while the great growth of the squash is going on i use liquid manure twice a week along three or four of the principal vines of each hill,ofen six pails to the hill if it is a dry time "

In conclusion let me pose this question. is manure tea a cure all? nope, is it the end all product? nope. but lets also remem,ber that depending on who you talk to you will always get a different answer. no one likes to praise a competitors product. im just glad we use it with great results. apparently that gemtleman back over one hundred years ago agreed with us.
His name was william warnock, the father of giant pumpkin growing.

pap

3/16/2006 11:32:50 PM

PumpkinBrat

Paradise Mountain, New York

I used several different tea's last year and I'll do the same this year. Regular compost tea, alfalfa Teas, and from worm castings. If you do a lot of searching on the web about different tea's you would give it a try. Great stuff.
PumpkinBrat

3/16/2006 11:34:44 PM

Dave McCallum

Hanover,Ontario,Canada

Time for some humor: Acouple of years ago I ordered some special compost tea poop from a source in Alaska. When the package finally arrived, it had obviously been opened by customs and sifted through by US and Canadian drug tracking, bomb sniffing chemical warfare agents. I wonder how foolish they must have felt when they thought they were on to something big and discovered it was just s..t.We all try something in our quest for the holy grail of pumpkins.

3/17/2006 9:35:11 AM

LOL Dave....Imagine some of the other s**t that those poor inspectors must encounter?

Please don't read my posts as trying to discourage the use of compost tea. Rather I am challenging those with the resources/connections to prod universities into spending the bucks on some good research studies.

The point is that too few studies have been properly funded & published. It's hard get behind a process that just "feels good" when so much is riding on the outcome. Making an equal effort in other growing area disciplines is alread well proven & quantifiable. The ag-sector is ignoring this discipline for a reason - - MONEY.

If the Compost Tea crowd wants to be taken seriously, they need to finance the studies just like everyone else.

3/17/2006 9:55:50 AM

gordon

Utah

"The point is that too few studies have been properly funded & published. It's hard get behind a process that just "feels good" when so much is riding on the outcome."

Can't this be said about every single thing that we in our patches ?
I'd start a list but ... I dont' want to stir the pot to much... :)

3/17/2006 11:24:59 AM

Alaska

I'm not sure if there's a chip on my shoulder but I do feel like I was ripped off. I'm always looking for ways to improve what I'm doing. I never make wholesale changes but I do experiment some each year. When I started reading about CT on the Compost_Tea forum I got really excited. How can something so wonderfull be so simple and cost effective? IT WASN'T!! I have been growing giant vegetables for about 20 years and gardening for many more. Also the wife and I run a retail greenhouse business, this will be our 11th year. So after five WRs and years of expericence as a professional grower I would like to think I know a little bit about what I'm doing. More to learn? OH YES! Back to the point I was trying to make. When growing certain giant veggies up here under our long summer days you can almost sit there and watch them grow. So after reading all the hype on the CT forum I was expecting some super results. I got no real results. The CT treated plants fell behind those that I grew my normal way and the 3rd group of plants grew about the same as the CT treated ones. So trust me after years of growing and taking and recording daily measurements I've found those CT claims to be nothing more than HYPE. If you are using CT on your regular garden stuff I can see why you might not notice any change. With very fast growing giants you will see changes they do respond in a big way to what you are treating them with. Anyhow I'm not angry. Just want to get the word out, BUYER BEWARE. Later Scott.

3/17/2006 2:06:52 PM

5150

ipswich, ma usa

What and when are the 5 time WR you have held? Might want to swap some non pumkin seeds with you. Ya can never have to many giant veggies growing in your yard.

John (5150)

3/17/2006 2:39:16 PM

Big Kahuna 26

Ontario, Canada.

For the anti-CT folks. I would like to suggest that the established practices of the day often make cheap cost effective alternatives a drain on current markets. The CT faction has not the resources or the market place capital to proceed with such studies.

IMHO, I tend to believe that teas do not harm the plants and provide little help in disease and insect management. Instead I use them to rejuvenate the soil. I would absolutely use CT for the foundation of my organic in season fertilizing program. I will often mix combinations of Molasses, Neptune's Fish, soluble Kelp, Humic acid(DNF) and compost teas together for applications as drenches too.

What do I know. I split so many fruit the past two years using these methods. Though everyone of the splitters was growing past or near the 2005 benchmarks.

I still got PM just as bad 1n 2004 as 2003 a year of non-CT use. The only thing that controls PM adequately for me on the scale of the hobbyist grower is baking soda & oil.

Cucumber beetles seamed to love CT. it never slowed them down at all.

My fertilizer use has dropped by 75% since I began using CT so the above mentioned point that Steve talks about has some merit.

One curious note I have experienced is the reduced age effect of the leaves that several growers have reported recently. Very similar to the comments that some have made about AGO-K and the leaves and overall plant canopy health late into September. Much more detailed studies are needed to find the direct cause of the good health some have seen late into the weigh-off time of year.

3/17/2006 8:02:49 PM

I split 'em all too Russ so maybe we're both full of tea.

3/17/2006 11:04:25 PM