Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Utah

what effect does Merit have on the worm population ?
how about grainular vs. spray on ?

I thought I read something about this before ... but I'm not finding it. thanks in advance for your knowledgeable comments.

4/17/2006 4:31:11 PM

The formulation doesn't matter at all. Merit (Imidacloprid) has no impact on earthworms at labeled rates. Honest.

4/17/2006 6:15:24 PM

Utah

thanks

4/18/2006 11:20:46 AM

Brooks B

Ohio

Tremor, how much Merit(75 wp) do you recomend using for 1000 sq ft for a 2 gallon sprayer,I know the instructions tell you to use alot less ,but whats the most you can use and still be safe and not go overboard on your first application before planting.

Brooks

4/18/2006 9:35:13 PM

4 level Teaspoons is all you need. More is NOT better. Less is not effective. Just stick to the program & all is well.

4/18/2006 10:04:13 PM

Engel's Great Pumpkins and Carvings

Montoursville, PA

I ask Larry Checkon the Imidacloprid, by any common name, question. His answer was simple. "I do not use it". "I do not like, to use anything that nukes the biological ballance, of my soil". Larry uses Warrior T with much less run off, of poisons, to the soil.

No soil chemical is without failure. None kill the total crop of cuke beetle, SVB's or any other grub population. The same is true of contact poisons however the soil may be less effected due, to less introduction, of the undesirable non-biodigradable chemicals. The effective kill rate may even be higher when using a contact poison. It is at least as good.

One alternative, to Imidacloprid, or Merit the commonly known Imidacloprid is Milky Spore Disease. It is totally organic and effectively attacks all white grubs. When the grub becomes diseased it creates more disease spore therefore a single application lasts up, to fifteen years. Yes even longer than that if you have fly-in Japaneese Beetle, on a yearly basis. Milky Spore Disease carrys with it no non-biodegradeable chemicals. I has no biological nuking elements what so ever. You won't have to read the scary label and wonder...what will this product do long term in my patch?

The only time I would like to use Imidacloprid might be the first year working against a known severely heavy grub population. Following years I would prefer to attack the remaining adults when they are above ground. There is a short time period when the grubs chew the dickins out of the roots. By the time they are airborn as adults the damage is done. If you do a carefull and timely contact spraying the percentage of kill may even be higher than the percentage, of kill using Imidacloprid.

I am not satisified with the statement that Immidacloprid does not kill earthworms. No one else in the sincere biological community is either. The larger question is relative, to the total biological ballance effectiveness, which also supports a better growing biolog

4/19/2006 10:55:40 AM

sambo

Sparta, NC

Steve is that 4 teaspoons per 1000 sq ft?

4/19/2006 11:29:47 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Doc I think your last post is a little off based. We use Admire(Imidacloprid) for the control of sucking, and eating bugs. I feel this is a much better way of prevention than a contact insecticide. Show me a contact spray that does not run off when it rains and you will be a millionaire.

The Application of Milky Spore in a Pumpkin Patch I feel would be worthless.

Again if we were raising a food crop for our families to eat it would be a different story. Although we are not we are trying to grow the biggest possible pumpkin. Preventing known problems before they occur.

4/19/2006 11:44:52 AM

Montoursville, PA

Sambo..........Yes that is suggested, for 1000 sq. ft. applied, in any amount, of water, for even distribution. Follow with at least an inch, of water, to water it in, is also suggested. Apparently it leaches into the soil below or only works best in the top inch or so.

4/19/2006 11:48:12 AM

dcross

Kiel WI

How long does Imidacloprid persist in the soil?

4/19/2006 12:42:02 PM

Montoursville, PA

The only way it can leave the soil is, by leaching, to lower soil strata and water movement towards the ocean. It eventually settles as active as the day it was applied, to to the bottom, of the ocean. The salts from tomorrow's ocean are already showing this proof. Once created it does not degrade. Along the way other deposits may build up and stay as a hot spot until it is leached away in a similar manor. This and other poisons that are not degradable is a major world challenge. If perchance any such chemical were up taken, by plants, they still do not change. The food chain then becomes the depository with each higher member storing more, of the chemicals. The depositing of these chemicals, on the plants that are then consumed, by the food chain simply moves small portions, of the chemical, to the top, of the food chain quicker.

Based on my one time use of it, in the soil and on the leaves, of my patch it has, to be reapplied frequently, to maintain killing power at either place. I do not use this one, in any form, since that experience did not work any better for me than contact insecticides, on the leaf.

Bio-Insecticides and fungicides are being developed as we speak. Agriculture is now moving money in enough amounts, to further develop the field. There are already a few that are growing, on the marketplace as they prove their worth.

4/19/2006 2:20:02 PM

Bantam

Tipp City, Ohio

I use Admire for my field pumpkins(2 acres) and Giants. I feel this is the best way for control of cuke beetle and other bugs like Shannon says. Using drip tape spaced at nine feet apart the amount of Admire is directed to the main rooting system instead of covering the entire field of the pumpkins. Now the Giants I increase the dosage 50% which is still within the tollerances stated in amount/acre. Other than a little Triazicide when needed for the giants I use no other insecticides or even fungicides since using the Agro-K program. Worms, I have more now in my Giant patch as well as the field since it is no longer farmed for corn/beans.

4/19/2006 9:13:16 PM

Merit 75WP when applied at labeled rates (4 teaspoons per 1000 sq ft) is at 10% the level the EPA considers a "concern" for earthworm toxicity using the deformed sperm tests considered most reliable for evaluating invertebrate chemical toxicity. This is the edge of calling Merit a "reduced risk pesticide". Were fish more tolerant of Imidacloprid, it would be considered a RRP.

Besides a Chinese researcher named ZENG who has a business agenda, no researcher is claiming that Imidacloprid is toxic to earthworms. Indeed a great deal of time & money has been spent & no impact has been discovered.

4/20/2006 12:01:57 AM

Engel's Great Pumpkins and Carvings

Montoursville, PA

That's somewhat akin, to saying you may put a quarter drop, of hydrolic fluid, in your cocktail tonight. Makes just about as much sense. It will only make you a little bit sick. With enough alcohol you will never taste it nor will there be any adverse immediate effects noticed.

That's like saying flush the commode twice and reduce the BOD ppm by volume fifty percent. However it is the same old hot air from the same sources with the same reasoning being repeated time and time again.

A poison is a poison is a poison is a poison. It is non-biodegradable. It defowls, by poisoning, any invironmnent it occupies. The total picture must be considered. Where does it go? What does it do? How long will it take? One needs to consider the whole trip and the result or effect at the final destination. One needs, to be able, to say it does not harm the total biological package since all parts are related. The product is poison and that can not be changed ever and that is the truth. Honest!

4/20/2006 12:24:31 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Doc what is safer Imidacloropid or Warrior T? Can't say one is a poison and the other is OK. One is a contact and kills everything the other is a systemic and only kills things that eat the plant treated with it. Both are poisons. One is the lesser of two evils.

4/20/2006 1:42:08 PM

Utah

Doc
I respect both you and Steve … and value both of your opinions. I understand your point and appreciate your passion but I also understand Steve’s and his. But restating in post after post, year after year, that one has to look at the big picture and that we are all poisoning the earth is nice, wonderful, and it states your position but if people don’t share your opinion then it becomes redundant. We know your position.
You seem to want to always over simplify things. In this case and in several others the analogies stated are not valid. No one here on BP wants to destroy the earth. But some think that some amount of certain chemical are acceptable and are not damaging to it.
If someone has a head ache some people often think its ok to take a couple aspirin. If someone’s plants have squash bugs and or cucumber beetles then some people think it is ok to put down some Merit around them. Neither of those is the same as putting hydraulic fluid in a drink or BOD in a toilet. And to compare them is ludicrous. I realize these type of statements come from your passion to you position … but to me, and I think to many others, they actually deflate your credibility and thus devalue your arguments.

4/20/2006 2:14:32 PM

Utah

You don’t want to accept the fact that people have different opinions on this subject and that their opinion might be just as valid as or more valid than yours.
It seems to me … my opinion only that Steve respects your ideas and beliefs but you don’t respect his. To some extent I think you are both full of hot air in the sense that neither of you has grown a large pumpkin for your area. But I do realize that a good coach isn’t always a good player. Anyway enough rambling on my part, again I respect and value the contrasting opinions but when the posts shifts to emotional outs burst of overly simplistic black and white analogies that are easily discounted and say I’m right and if you don’t see it my way then you are wrong … well then I’m immediately turned off by the whole scene and turn away. Which I believe is one reason why many fine individuals have left this site. So my suggestion and mine alone … is please choose your words more carefully when posting in the future and respect others opinions.
Thanks for letting me express my opinion.
gordon

4/20/2006 2:14:44 PM

dcross

Kiel WI

So if I use imidacloprid this year on my pumpkins, will it be in my spinach next year(grown in the same spot as this years pumpkin)?

4/20/2006 2:26:03 PM

From Cornell:

Imidacloprid

ENVIRONMENTAL FATE

Breakdown of Chemical in Soil and Groundwater

The half-life of imidacloprid in soil is 48-190 days, depending on the amount of ground cover (it breaks down faster in soils with plant ground cover than in fallow soils) (9). Organic material aging may also affect the breakdown rate of imidacloprid. Plots treated with cow manure and allowed to age before sowing showed longer persistence of imidacloprid in soils than in plots where the manure was more recently applied, and not allowed to age (10). Imidacloprid is degraded stepwise to the primary metabolite 6-chloronicotinic acid, which eventually breaks down into carbon dioxide (11). There is generally not a high risk of groundwater contamination with imidacloprid if used as directed. The chemical is moderately soluble, and has moderate binding affinity to organic materials in soils. However, there is a potential for the compound to move through sensitive soil types including porous, gravelly, or cobbly soils, depending on irrigation practices (12).

Breakdown of Chemical in Surface Water

The half-life in water is much greater than 31 days at pH 5, 7 and 9. No other information was found.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/haloxyfop-methylparathion/imidacloprid-ext.html

4/20/2006 3:31:31 PM