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Appalachian Mtns.

With the recent discussions on this board of organic-vs-non-organic soil, and the debates regarding pesticides and fungicides, I thought I'd remind everyone what "organic", and isn't. Seems I'm hearing that many folks are *organic* pumpkin growing.
or·gan·ic (ôr-gãn'ĭk)
adj.
Of, relating to, or derived from living organisms: organic matter.
Of, relating to, or affecting a bodily organ: an organic disease.

Of, marked by, or involving the use of fertilizers or pesticides that are strictly of animal or vegetable origin: organic vegetables; an organic farm.
Raised or conducted without the use of drugs, hormones, or synthetic chemicals: organic chicken; organic cattle farming.
Serving organic food: an organic restaurant.
Simple, healthful, and close to nature: an organic lifestyle.

Having properties associated with living organisms.
Resembling a living organism in organization or development; interconnected: society as an organic whole.
Constituting an integral part of a whole; fundamental.
Law. Denoting or relating to the fundamental or constitutional laws and precepts of a government or an organization.
Chemistry. Of or designating carbon compounds.
n.
A substance, especially a fertilizer or pesticide, of animal or vegetable origin.

Soooo, if you have great humus/organic additions to the soil in your patch (like most of us do) BUT use Imadicloprid, Grubex, Admire, bifenthrin, etc. for bugs and disease, then you are NOT raising your pumpkins orgaincally.

4/21/2006 1:38:43 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

EU farming policy moved support away from production subsidies and towards enviroment friendly practices last year.
Hopefully I will begin the process of Organic conversion this year,Organic produce sold to consumers has to meet legal requirements this is a link to our main controlling body.

http://www.soilassociation.org/web/sa/saweb.nsf/Living/standards_guide.html

I will be trying to grow my Pumpkins to their standards this year,previously foliar feeds have been my main inorganic amendments should be able to find alternatives for those.

4/21/2006 5:28:14 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

I noticed that in the UK under extreme circumstances, a farmer may apply to use copper and rotenone.
Good reading overall.

4/21/2006 6:39:48 AM

[email protected]

I'm going to pitch my ball for the ORGANIC FERTILIZER team.

To a chemist "organic" mean "containing an oxygen molecule". Hence Urea is organic.

To the purist "organic" should mean "having once been alive" &/or "a non-mineral agent used as it is found in nature without processing beyond extraction".

The trouble is that crude petroleum was once alive (dinosaur crap, etc) so the definitions change every time another organic fertilizer company makes a donation to OMRI. In my opinion OMRI sold their soul in an effort to appease suppliers who cannot locate real NATURAL ORGANIC raw materials to make an agronomically sound contribution that is both certifiable & organic.

http://www.omri.org/

http://www.nofa.org/index.php

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/Consumers/brochure.html

Because there is no way to sustain feeding our growing population without SOME chemical inputs, the strict definitions of ORGANIC has also been sold down the river.

In fertilizer production the words "Natural Organic" & "OMRI Listed" used to really mean something. But with a very real shortage of "CERTIFIABLE" raw materials, OMRI caved & now allows reacted forms of sulfate of potash as well as munitions grade Chilean Nitrate (among others).

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/garden/07733.html

CSU does a nice job of defining organic fertilizers with an emphasis on animal & plant byproducts. But even they are too quick to allow Rock Powders. Rocks are minerals so how far should this stretch be allowed to go?

As an example, the US EPA is seeking to now permit HUMAN SLUDGE as "organic".

http://www.organicconsumers.org/organic/sludge100405.cfm

This would be just one more misstep on an already slippery slope.

4/21/2006 7:45:26 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Clarification from a chemist's POV: as a general rule, we consider Organic Chemistry to be the study of Carbon-based molecules, not Oxygen-based.

An organic acid, ketone, aldehyde, etc.. would contain an Oxygen molecule.

4/21/2006 3:40:19 PM

Montoursville, PA

Yep..........MEK one of the most controlled chemicals going could be called organic using the oxygen factor. That would really go good in a cocktail.

I don't really know anyone who confuses minerals with the word organic except maybe, for a spin doctor wishing to be arguementative.

Any doctrine or school of thought that does not change and adjust, to the succesfull adjustment, of the doctrine is a dead or a on the way out doctrine. Any person, or competitive doctrine that continually belittles the growing doctrine actually fears it and uses known skills, or speaking techniques, to confuse the learners around the edges.

The organic growing doctrine is basically very simple and effective. It includes the use of manures, composts, minerals cover crop, crop rotation and crop elimination to be successfull.

I'm sure healthy patch is related but organic patch permits no synthetic chemistry. I do not know anyone growing pumpkins that does so organically. What is put into the soil package may well be all organic but the synthetic insecticides and fungicides completely removes the term growing organically. True statements like using less or leaning hard into organic principles is honest as I see it today. I do not think the hobby grower will achieve a completely organic position when growing pumpkins.

4/21/2006 8:34:32 PM

[email protected]

Carbon molecule....my mistake....I knew that too....LOL

4/21/2006 9:42:20 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Doc...the last part sorta sounds like what I said..LOL

4/22/2006 3:49:27 AM

San Luis Obispo, Ca.

How can one tell what is Organic? If all the Cat's within 50 miles of your Pumpkin Patch use it for a litter box.

4/23/2006 11:26:35 AM

Montoursville, PA

Catch one cat at a time. Ring his neck just about half. Wing him over the patch, to a prepared hole. That is your organic Cat Skan. Cover the evidence. Don't wait for its report. Catch another working diligently, to find one that reports the skan findings instantly. Good cats like that are hard, to find. It's a matter, of selective elimination, until one gets the idea and talks.

4/23/2006 2:40:53 PM

Midwest

Doc: I can see your point because it takes research into alternatives to chemical ferts, insecticide and fungicide and then applying what you've learning to growing. It's hard to grow competitive pumpkins if your plant is under stress. You have to apply the right substance at the right time at the right rate to max the potential of your plants. The chemicals are very powerful and will do the job, most times. And, their easy. The organic alternatives are adequate in most cases, not as powerful but they will work. Ideally, we can replace the chemicals. I am in the 'leaning heavily' on organics category.
I wonder if any of these would be considered partially organic...
Neem Oil, Potassium bicarbonate, SF nematodes, baking soda, compost tea, urea, coffee grounds

4/23/2006 10:17:10 PM

Warwood

I say moderation with this sport. Let's see how big a pumpkin one grows totally "organic" as you know what I mean. It wouldn't be easy..PERIOD.It's a fine balance of good basic gardening skills, timely limited pesticides, and as much "organic" fertilizer as needed. Moderation in all things. Dichotomous thinking creates division...the narrow moderate road is the road less travelled.

4/25/2006 9:22:02 PM