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Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

About two or three days ago, I noticed that the cots on my 721.5 Vincent seedling were starting to thin and shrivel up at the edges. Now I see the same thing starting to happen on one of my other plants. I have them under a fluorescent grow light with two 48" bulbs. The seedlings are in plastic ice cream containers sitting on a household heat mat at the lowest setting.

What do you think could cause this? Too much heat? Not enough water? What? I didn't see this happen last year. So, I am getting worried. I need to solve this one fast or I'll be starting some back-ups soon.

You can see what I am talking about in my diary here:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=47206

5/8/2006 10:21:54 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

I had been checking the temperature on top of the heat mat with a wireless thermometer which showed the temperature to be in an acceptable range. I just checked the seed starting medium temperature using a thermometer with a probe with the same results. So, I don't think that I am cooking the roots.

5/8/2006 10:39:57 PM

[email protected]

Maybe you should go to a light icecream, or even a frozen yogurt instead of all that heavy cream and high fat... lol.. .Just kidding.. Seriously, I would back off the light a bit, with that healthy true leaf I wouldn't worry too much unless it hits that leaf. The cots are just stored energy and genetics for the first few weeks of the plants life to get it going. You should be fine.. Get em outside during the day with some natural sun and the gentle wind to harden them off a bit..

5/8/2006 10:42:40 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

Maybe that's the difference from last year other than the flourescent light. This year I have them up in my bedroom away from the window. Last year I had them in the living room by the glass sliding doors. So, they were getting plenty of natural light.

5/8/2006 11:45:15 PM

Canada

I'm running the same set-up 2 48" tubes and i'm keeping them roughly 2" away from touching the bulbs. I wouldnt worrie too much the Cots dont mean anything its how the rest of the plant grows. maybe too much water maybe not enough? i let mine dry out between waterings under the lights and I dont add allot of water eaither and NO fertilizer I used different potting soil this year and it has seemed to help a bit as well.

Dave

5/8/2006 11:55:24 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

I have had problems with four of my plants so far. Two of the plants, the cots where sloid as if they where only as one and not two on the plant. I had to take a sharp blade and cut along the sides of the cots to split it into two. Never had a problem like this ever before. Some of the cots are so solid and curled up, I have to help spread them open....

5/9/2006 12:17:06 AM

Alaska

Are the Cots that important in the long run? I would suspect fertilizer burn. Leach the pot with fresh clean water. Later Scott.

5/9/2006 1:06:31 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

I didn't actually use any fertilizer per se. But, I did mix a bit of kelp meal into the seed starting mix (which didn't contain any fert to start with). I can't imagine that the kelp would be strong enough to damage anything. But, I suppose that's a possibility too.

5/9/2006 1:45:31 AM

Syracuse, NY

if your plants are already growing, you do NOT need them to be on top of any heating device as well, unless the area where you have them is indeed cold, which i doubt.
i dunno what the leaves curling is about;
i'll have to look at that, but no need for bottom heat,
once the seeds even START to disturb the starting mix.
also, my flourescents are two to a fixture, 4 feet each side by side, one is a gro-lite and the other a full-spectrum bulb, each from Home Depot quite cheaply;
they are kept about an inch above the leaves, any of them, and i have never had any burns or discolorations whatsover, even if the true leaves have been touching the tubes---eric

5/9/2006 1:54:23 AM

Syracuse, NY

true leaf growth looks good--don't worry yet.
keep your lights very close to the plants to avoid
legginess like the 1100 you have.

5/9/2006 2:00:52 AM

Alaska

Was the soil you used a germination mix? Most bagged soils have a nutrient charge and the bottom heat might speed up it's release? Just a thought? Later Scott.

5/9/2006 2:38:41 AM

Mocksville, NC

ditto with pumpkinpal2,
I remove from heat mat soon as they germinate room temp is fine, and use the grow lights or better yet sunny location within the house. Roger

5/9/2006 6:16:37 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

They are on the floor. So, I guess they are a little bit cooler than the rest of the room. But, that's not terribly cold. So, I've turned off the heat mat.

The seedlings have been under the light since emerging and I have kept it pretty close. So, I am assuming that the legginess of the 1100 may be partly genetic. Otherwise the other three would be just as leggy. But, their stems are all half as long as the 1100.

How long do you keep the grow lights on for? All day? I've had them go off at 2am and on again at 6am so that the plants would have a short simulated night time. But, I'm going to move them to a sunnier location. So, the fluorescents shouldn't be an issue. I'll see what happens.

Thanks for your help everybody.

5/9/2006 9:35:01 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

Oh, the seed starting mix that I used is Pro-Mix seed starting mix. I think it's peat based. Maybe it does have some nutrients in it. There are pictures of the bag in my diary from last year.

5/9/2006 9:36:52 AM

Waquoit Mass

too close to the grow lites will burn em

5/9/2006 10:06:12 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I used to keep the lights on all the time for 4 or 5 days,this year I switched them off once all the seeds germinated they are looking a bit prettier and growing slower no rush for a 400 sq.ft plant,sowed some back ups today they will get 24/7 lighting to catch up.My 24/7 experience is Cucumbers and Onions love it,Pumpkins tolerate it,Watermelons and Tomatoes hate it.Be interested to know what other people think.

5/9/2006 11:20:46 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

I don't have pictures, but things are getting worse. I think that whatever is wrong with the cots is affecting the true leaf on at least two seedlings. The other two are showing some signs of cot problems.

I think it's time to start some backups. DARN!!!!

5/10/2006 9:17:40 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

If you have added water was it from the bottom up? Make sure the top of the soil stays dry ...and any excess water can leave through the bottom...good Luck!

5/11/2006 6:55:34 AM

[email protected]

I hate going out on a limb without seeing these seedlings, but this is starting to sound like a seedling root rot caused by a pathogen & aggravated by too much water &/or improper temperatures.

Cool-wet soil favors Fusarium rots.
Warm-wet soil favors Pythium.
Collectively most folks just say "damping off" since all are associated with a too-wet soil condition.

Regardless. IF A SEEDLING DAMPING-OFF ROT WAS TO BLAME:

Start new seeds in a different soiless media. NOT the same bag. NOT the same brand. Wash your own hands in an alcohol based cleaner before starting. Bleach everything that you must re-use first (heating mats, coolers, pots, etc). Work in a different room if you can or at least scrub the table with bleach. Wash the seeds in straight Drug Store grade hydrogen peroxide to destroy stray pathogens on the outside (we soak over night). You might even wish to use seeds that were produced in a different patch if you knew or feared that a Fusarium sp. was the cause of a damping off rot.

You may even wish to treat the new seedling with a Pythium/Phytophthora fungicide preventively since curative procedures rarely work well enough to justify the effort. Banol, Banrot, Subdue, Aliete, etc are all effective for Pythium but not against Fusarium. Aliete might save an infected seedling if it is caught right away.

I've never seen a seedling DIE from drough stress. But I've seen a LOT of seedling killed with water.

Of course this damage could also just be related to the lights, fert burn from a heavily loaded soiless mix, temperature extremes, etc. So my soap box could come tumbling down. LOL

For peace of mind, if these seedling fail, you might want to take them into a good plant pathology labe to find out if there was a fungal pathogen responsible. Then you can turn the loss into a win in the form of an education.

Good luck with the correction either way you go.

5/11/2006 10:43:35 AM

Ontario

Didn't you soak your seeds in water with mouth wash in it (see diary)? Just a shot in the dark here but I would say that was a very bad thing to do. Too much hydrogen peroxide will curl your cots. Lord know what alcohol will do to a plant. For the sake of a 5 minute trip to the grocery store and less than $2 for hydrogen peroxide, it looks like you bought yourself a lot of hardship.

5/13/2006 7:53:11 PM

[email protected]

Mouthwash?

5/14/2006 12:22:07 AM

[email protected]

I just looked at the diary.

Those pots are too small for seedlings that are this far along.

This mouthwash thing has me concerned too. Hydrogen peroxide is a good disinfectant. But the other reason for using it is the way it oxygenates the water. Between the alcohol & the flavoring, I fear that nothing good can come from using mouthwash in the seed soak.

5/14/2006 12:28:43 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Ahhh...Inspector Pie at your service.
Tally-ho Watson!

5/14/2006 7:24:34 AM