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Ohio

Ever since I started growing these giants it seems like always around the 1st and 2nd week of September I have had alot of pumpkins slow down to a crawl or completely quit growing at this growing stage of the game, while other growers are still getting that 20 to 30lb a day growth. I'm lacking something at this stage of growing and cant put my finger on it.
This year at that time in September I applied alot more calcium and potassium then I did before and didn't apply not even one ounce of fish and seaweed and very little Nitrogen if any at all if I could help it.
For those of you who are still getting the high growth rate this time in Sept what is it you do to keep your pumpkin growing at these great rates?

This year I have been talking alot with who I consider one of the best growers in the world, and Im following his soil preparations to a 'T'. I can say this for sure, I have never worked so much on my soil in the fall as much as Im doing now, not even close. Most of all my soil prep I do in the spring. Hopefully after I get my soil results back, and send them to him and follow what he suggest to do that this will make the difference in this stage of my growing.
Any one ever hit this bump in the road, and if you have what did you run into as what you was lacking that got you around this bump at this stage in your pumpkins growing?

Thanks for any input you guys and gals can give,

Brooks

11/22/2006 5:18:22 AM

Rhode Island

brooks

plant and soil health/nutrition and weather all play a part come sept first.

usually pumpkins pollinated between late june and july 5 th or so are already past their peak by sept 1st and are heading down hill and into the 15 to 10 pound a day range.

the difference between a slow taper down and a rapid one is a combination of the things i mentioned in my first sentence

mostly keeping some areas of the plant fresh ( letting the main grow until pickin), keeping the soil healthy during the season (but not crammed with to much fertalizers and such)

keeping the plant healthy with enough sprays for insect and disease when needed,but not soaked in the stuff.

weather,etc. keep the fruit covered with blankets at night anytime the temp will go below 60 degree. ( keeps the fruit at a somewhat even temp and eliminates the cool down and warm up period which can effect growth )

last but not least brooks? sometimes the seed you choose produced a stud plant and pumpkin.sometimes it a dud.

pap

11/22/2006 7:21:36 AM

[email protected]

Brooks,

You're in a new patch. But as I recall you thought you saw Fusarium on one plant didn't you?

If so, probably the best bet is to not plant in that spot next year. Why pour gas on an open fire?

The other stuff Dick already covered.

Make gentle amendments that keep stuff balanced. The end game fertility goals should be to keep ALL of the nutrient needs covered. Keeping Calcium & Potassium elevated is good but not at the expense of Nitrogen.

Think of it this way: The plants need ALL of the elements in "bare minimum quantities". Let one element drop below the minimum & the back slide begins. Once the growth rate slows, events to start growth back up usually result in split fruit or sometimes no response at all.

Build a balanced soil like the motor in your car. It'll do no good to block the head & install high compression pistons to leave them on stock rods. Keep on eye on the stock rods as they'll probably break. In-season soil & leaf tissue testing is very useful & can answer the "which link is weakest" question. Corrections with supplemental fertilizers should be made 2 weeks before the minimums are reached. These supplements should be very mild as in spoon feeding. Heavy feasting applications can & usually do have the opposite effect we desire.

Consider 0-0-50 Sulfate of Potash as a "for instance".

A heavy in-season rate would be 1 lb of K per 1000 sq ft.

That's a measly 2 lbs of granules applied to 1000 sq ft. This small quantity is going to feel like almost nothing at all. Spread out this thin it's going to be almost impossible to broadcast evenly especially with vines & leaves running all over.

continued

11/22/2006 8:03:40 AM

[email protected]

Like filling up the tank during the journey there is no benefit to overfilling the tank & letting fuel spill onto the ground. The spilled fuel will do nothing to keep you motoring. And the top speed won't be any greater. The genetics of the plant are a lot like the engineering of the motor. The strongest motor still won't finish the race without fuel getting to it.

Your fusarium was like a clogged fuel filter.

Nutrition is like the fuel but remember that there needs to be 16 total elements present or the tank is still empty. Having more of a single element won't make up for another that is deficient.

The rest of the stresses that befall our plants may be pest, grower or weather/environment imparted but that's fodder for another thread.

11/22/2006 8:03:45 AM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Brooks
I agree with Pap. Plant health is probably #1. In Canada, by the 1st week in Sept the weather has cooled substancially & most of your leaves have either PM or they are so weathered that they are turning brown & dying. The plant that grew my 1011 in 2005 was down to about 20-30 leaves after the pumpkin by the 1st week in Sept. The rest had died & were laying flat on the ground. I kept the remainder of the leaves free of PM & fairly healthy looking. The pumpkin gained almost 200# in the last 5 weeks before the weigh off. It was a real eye opener for me. This year I kept my plants as healthy as possible in Sept & it rewarded me with a new PB. I also think that growers get sick of working on their plants by the 1st of Sept & slack off a bit when it comes to plant upkeep. I know I use to, but not anymore. I hope this helps.

Phil

11/22/2006 8:16:01 AM

San Jose [email protected]

do you guys suggest a soil test mid season?, maybe in august, so you have time to help before sept ?

11/22/2006 6:38:54 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

I think I read, soil or leaf tissue testing is very useful...wondering if you had to choose one or the other...which would tell you the most? Thanks in advance. Peace, Wayne

11/23/2006 2:16:16 AM

Rhode Island

the last couple years we have tested in
october,--- then based on results lock and load for next season (apply ammendments as needed off report )

spring --- review results from previous fall (to make sure everything is on target and /or adjust a bit more
)
first week in august--- refuel the racer and tighten the wheel bolts for final 100 laps ( add as needed for stretch run )

pap

11/23/2006 8:53:05 AM

Ohio

Steve, , Im not just talking about this year, but other years as well, in totally different growing areas they quit growing on me.
Im doing just that this year and not planting in that area I had fusarium. Im doing just like you suggested to me in July when I got that nasty a.. disease, and thats not plant in this area for at least 4 yrs.( Sure would hate to have seen your phone bill charge for that call we had, lol.)
Im luckier then most growers that I have numerous acres to change my growing area. No way would I burn a prime seed planting it in this so called 'fire pit' , especially after everything you have schooled me on this past year that I didn’t know about fusarium .
I am however ,doing something to my soil that you suggested for growers last resort that have had this disease that have no other place to grow the following year. (which I don’t plan to grow in this area) And that is covering the area with a big sheet of clear plastic to help try and kill this disease(somewhat, if it can be killed). I have had this plastic covering my soil in the area I took up my main and stump the day I pulled them. Then after the pumpkin was harvested in October I covered the rest of this area with plastic.(plant past the pumpkin).
I can say this, after losing the stump and my entire main up to the pumpkin, that Clearys fungicide you suggested saved the rest of my plant and gave me enough time to grow my pumpkin 500 more extra lbs.
I dont plan to take the plastic off untill next October, I know this will kill everything in my soil ,including the good, but thats ok with me because I dont plan on planting anything in this area for 4 or 5 more years so the soil will have time to recover all the good stuff I killed when I take the plastic off in a year. Cont..

11/23/2006 9:43:00 AM

Ohio

I Think you guys are right and hit the nail on the head when you mentioned balanced soil and disease free plants, but when my pumpkins quit growing its before my plants get hit with any disease, but I do now notice when I do get PM , I really do kinda give up on the plant and not concentrate on keeping what’s left on the plant that is healthy, healthy. So most of my problem has to be what you guys have mentioned, and that’s my soils balance. It would be nice to be able to send a soil sample in mid July, but by the time I get the soil samples back from the lab it might be to late to do anything about then. Im gonna try it next year anyhow, atleast it will give me a idea for the following year. Thanks for all the input guys, this thread has helped me out a lot!

Thanks Pap,Steve and Phil,
Brooks

11/23/2006 9:44:35 AM

Minnesota([email protected])

I know very little about pests and diseases. I'm wondering if it could be somthing attacking the roots?

11/23/2006 10:29:17 AM

Mastic Beach, New York

i hear ya brooks..past 2 season's my pumpkins hit the brick wall..(2005 758,822 both got wilt in mid aug and slowed way down, this year on my 922 same thing early aug , i had sept leaves in aug..turn out i had spider mites ,found out too late to fix..live and learn..i'm taking down 11 more tress so i can get FULL sun next year!! 2 years ago i took 12 tress down and the weights went up ,now with full sun look out

11/23/2006 12:39:50 PM

[email protected]

Here's another end-game idea.

Patch cleanliness can be a problem in September. Any type of rotting or decaying fruit or pruned plant parts will release ethylene gas which will influence fruit maturation. Since we're trying to keep these buggers growing, the need to keep all aborts, culls or prunings well away from the plants is critical. I wish I could say how close is too close but air movement & prevailing wind direction would have a lot to do with this.

11/23/2006 1:55:21 PM

[email protected]

One more September possibility:

Learn to identify Mites too Brooks. Most years growers never see them but they're still there. This year they broke early for some folks & I was deluged with calls & emails about them.

11/23/2006 1:57:13 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve, can diseases such as fusarium be effectively controlled by organic means. Either adding large amounts of compost or cornmeal. Or by feeding the plant's soil molasses in the latter growth months of Aug and Sept. to enhance the beneficial performance mycorrhizal fungi.

A high Phos level in the soil, also can halt mycorrhizal activity bringing an early halt to fruit growth as well.

11/23/2006 7:21:07 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve is very much correct about his thoughts on ethylene gas. Compost piles should be well removed from planting areas.

11/23/2006 7:24:44 PM

[email protected]

Actually adding too much organic matter can make Fusarium worse. Very high OM soils can hold too much water in the rootzone during heavy periods of rain. Balance is the key. Some of us 20%OM people are starting to think that maybe 10%OM should be the upper limit.

That aside....I was in communication with Dr's Elaine Ingham & Joe Whalen (Soil Food-web Inc) this summer. They are adamant that Fusarium can be controlled with Compost Tea.

I agree that with a high Phos soil we should probably reinoculate the soil with mycorrhiza as the season progresses. Once at planting for sure. Then as the vines (or just the nodes) are buried keep inoculating. But on the high-P soils we should be inoculating with both mycorrhizal & bacterial inoculants every 3 weeks to keep things balanced.

Bacterial inoculant packages (especially bacillus Subtilis) should be reapplied every 3 weeks all summer on soils with a history of Fusarium.

Trichoderma should probably only be used right at the time that Fusarium is waking up as it may hinder mycorrhizal development. This antagonism is actually thought to yield a positive disease suppressive impact in the long-term. But the reduction of long strand mycorrhiza might have a net loss effect on feeding potential of the root system. The truth is - we don't know for sure.

11/23/2006 9:46:14 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

bacillus Subtilis, can this be bought on it's own or is it usually mixed in with something else? Any suggestions as to where to find it? In Canada? Any help is appreciated.

Phil

11/24/2006 7:25:10 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve, as always another very informative discussion. Fungi have a very important symbiotic relationships with other organisms and our angiosperms. Mycorrhizal symbiosis between our plants and fungi is particularly important. Increasing the sizes of these progeny annually will become more difficult as we are continuing to discover. In Ron and Dick's patches it must have been a finely tuned machine. The complexity of such a soil arrangement while largely a mystery to science still remains an field of enormous growth potential and opportunity.

I know you have recently also mentioned(seminar 2005)that we are endangering our populations of beneficial's among them bacillus Subtilis with indiscriminate usage of fungicides. I often wonder if there are any types of organic remedies that are harmful to these communities as well?

Growing awareness of fungi seams to have exploded in just the last 3 years or so. However much of the Bacterial life in our soils still remains a mystery to most of us. Examples that are often cited revolve around how the relationship of good to bad bacteria is benefited and balanced.

11/24/2006 7:50:41 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Phil your awake early this morning. I was going to ask that question next but you beat to it.

Brooks, In answer to your question of growth into the waining part of the growth cycle. I believe we must look deep into the Heavens. Weather is a very limiting factor! As Pap earlier described above. Cool nights signal the beginning of senesence and an eventual end to your patch fun. I also now have come to an understanding that low humidity plays a very important roll as well. Little is understood about leaf transpiration from the canopy and fruit development. The sink source relationship is at play here and weather plays a bigger part than we somestimes like to admit.

11/24/2006 8:04:01 AM

Ontario, Canada.

If you guys are looking for another topic to research check out Photoperiods of the AGP plant. This is another amazing topic that is little discussed here at BP.com. I first became aware of this during the annual GVGO patch tour this summer. Sunlight is the ultimate growth limiting factor. Discovery of simple ligthing enhancements could someday propel us into night time growing of AGP's.

11/24/2006 8:25:09 AM

Ontario, Canada.

As you can tell I'm a Canadian boy who has usually observed the American Thanksgiving holiday. I've got way too much time on my hands this morning. here another thought.

If the production of ethylene gas is detrimental at this time should we not be removing as much gas as possible at this time. By trimming the canopy to promote air circulation. By taking down all sources of wind protection to prevent gas concentrations. By using fruit heating blankets that are porous to reduce trapped gases at the fruits surface. Another concern is the very motion of leaves and stocks blowing in the wind produces this gas. Seams to be a major contradiction there.

These threads always raise more questions than answers.

11/24/2006 8:34:34 AM

[email protected]

Straight bacillus-Subtilis can be purchased by itself. Growth Products calls theirs "Companion" but there are others. Because Companion is a registered pesticide it costs as much or more than some fungicides.

http://www.growthproducts.com/docs/hort_companion_biological_fungicide_2005.pdf

Like anything else care should be exercised when using this. Blasting the soil with just one species of bacteria obviously upsets the entire biology of the "rhizo-sphere".

I prefer to see growers starting in a healthy patch & using a cocktail of beneficial fungal & bacterial inoculants that don't rely on any single species but rather set up a field of biodiversity. Like this:

http://www.planthealthcare.com/direct/FlowerSaverPlus.pdf

Mycor Flower Saver Plus contains all of the good bacteria & VAM that we need to get things going. Applied as we bury nodes & again every 3 weeks (high-Phos soils) keeps the populations shifted in the right direction. This material isn't regsitered as a fungicide so the manufacturer has never had to pay for a registration label. Hence the cost is much lower.

continued

11/24/2006 8:44:07 AM

[email protected]

Fungicide can & do kill beneficial soil fungi especially VAM (mycorrhizae). I've posted this before but here is the list of fungicides that have been reviewed for their effects.

http://www.planthealthcare.com/feov.html

Note that systemic fungicides in the same family as Banner & 3336 (etc) have the greatest impact on soil fungi. This can be minimized by using lower volume sprays that reduce soil contact.

Ironicly 3336 (thiophanate-methyl) is one of the more popular Fusarium fungicides. Drenches are the only way to protect the roots from soil borne Fusarium. If this sounds like a Catch22, it is. Once we start using 3336 drenches we're stuck for that entire year & cannot let up since the soil biology will need to be reinoculated to restore balance once we've "nuked" it.

So in some sense, using soil drenches of conventional chemical fungicides is an "all or nothing" system approach if the soil/roots are Fusarium infected.

For those growers not yet Fusarium infected, then lower volumes of contact fungicides will work in concert with a soil bacteria/fungi program & the best of both worlds can be maintained.

We tried this at the school this year with MILK being used as our Powdery Mildew fungicide. I have no evidence that milk doesn't harm soil fungi. But I doubt that it would.

11/24/2006 8:44:16 AM

[email protected]

Ironically, Canada is a tough place to sell bio-inoculants. Biofungicides can be sold as fungicides without undue (costly) testing to prove their worth. So I can sell (as a for instance) phosphonate fertilizers (control Phytophthora) as a fungicide as a low-cost unregistered biofungicide. But try to import a bacterial soil inoculant & the wrath of government jumps all over you. Yep...Canada has some very unusual rules when it come to soil inoculants.

11/24/2006 8:47:42 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Phil, You might want to try a phone call to Plant products in Brampton. They have a number of specialized products that are not listed on their web site. Also try the makers of Mykes, PREMIER TECH BIOTECHNOLOGIES in Quebec.

http://www.premiertech.com/myke/mycorise/faq/ffaq.htm

PREMIER TECH BIOTECHNOLOGIES
Corporate Office
1, avenue Premier
Rivière-du-Loup (Québec)
G5R 6C1 CANADA


1 800 606-6926
(418) 867-8883
(418) 867-3999
[email protected]


http://www.plantprod.com/EN/catalogue/20Media.html

Pro-Mix ‘BX’ With Mycorise
PRO-MIX ‘BX’ with MYCORISE is an unique professional growing medium which contains a beneficial inoculant, Glomus intraradices. This organism attaches to and colonizes root systems forming a symbiosis with the host plant. These fungi, known as mycorrhizal fungi, enable the host plant to benefit by increasing nutrient absorption and reducing water stress.

Research has demonstrated the following benefits on certain crops:

• more cuttings on pot grown geraniums
• superior plant height on container grown poinsettias and ash
• higher plant dry weight on container grown gerbera
• more stem ramifications on pot grown coleus and salvia
• greater fruit yield on field grown green peppers
• more flowers on pot grown gerbera
• more coloured bracts on pot grown poinsettias.

Pro-Mix ‘BX’ with Mycorise is lightweight and suitable for rooting cuttings, transplanting and propagation in stock beds.

Item 68858 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.8 CFC

11/24/2006 9:37:33 AM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Thanks Russ & Steve. I appreciate you quick responses. I'll look around for Canadian products with beneficial fungal & bacterial inoculants added. I use Myco every year & really believe in the stuff. We were given little bags of fertilizer at last year's convention. It mentions bacillus Subtilis & other bacterial inoculants as being added in. I think it was PHC or something like that. Is this the stuff your talking about when you mention a cocktail of beneficial fungal & bacterial inoculants? Thanks again.

Phil

11/25/2006 8:52:57 AM

[email protected]

Hey Phil,

That was me handing those out. Most of those samples were Bio-Pak Plus which is the bacterial inoculant we speak of plus 3-0-20 fertilizer. This material is intended as a finishing formula. There is no mycorrhiza in that formulation.

11/25/2006 6:09:07 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Steve

That's the ones. Okay, thanks for the info. I'll check around for a Canadian product that will suit my needs. Thanks again for all the info. I really appreciate it.

Phil

11/26/2006 8:10:24 AM